General Chat

Teresa ...and yes I AM passionate about this, because I do not wish the country I live in to slide towards the bigots and racists point of view in the wake of these riots,. which so many people less intelligent than yourself are happy to label as racially motivated, 'blame it on the black guy, the immigrant etc etc '....

A woman round here was told to 'go back to where she came from' while her car was trashed by 'copycat' thugs ... bleating out the whole 'us and them' line.

When the EDL use the riots as an added 'excuse' to trash my local town on Saturday as they planned to do weeks before the riots...when the BNP call them "black riots" ...I will be PASSIONATE about that too...much good may it do me in the face of irredeemable ignorance.

Cat, there are plenty of youth workers out there who say these kids are not interested, they would rather be lurking on street corners doing nothing, that they are unable to connect with them. Yet it's those same kids who bemoan the fact they have no voice. Clearly they are not talking, and nobody will listen until you do. That's what I meant by that.

Listenign to a lot of these kids, they feel they are entitled to respect without earning it. I saw a 14 year old saying just that. 'You want respect, well you won't get it until you respect me'. How do you deal with that?

And again I say, look at who is in court for the looting...they are not these deprived inner city kids in the main, they are people with jobs, education, prospects...and now, ruined careers, with only themselves to blame.

I'm trying to be as understanding of what people are saying here as I can.It may be difficult for people who live an ordered framework in their lives,who not necesarrily live in shall we say "suburban comfort" to understand that this underclass that I hinted at,whether we like it or not,are not going away.

Of course no one will welcome the scenes we have seen the last few days.To simply condemn though without looking as I say examining the underlying reasons for them is simply to invite yet more trouble in the future.

Of course let me make it clear people from my council estate didn't riot,lets say in post war years.They had useful jobs to look forward to in local industries like Mines,brickyards etc.Jobs I know that certain sections in society looked down their noses at.

We are now living though I recognise in a post industrial age.We need answers though what happens to the people who are left behind.

I heard a young girl on BBC News this morning,,a school teaching assistant who lives on a Peckham Housing Estate.She invited Cameron and Johnson too come and live there.She said in just one week they will be turning to drink drugs and whatever else to relieve the misery of their lives.

TW, I know a few kids on this estate who have this attitude wrt respect. Tbh, I don't think this estate is that bad. Yes, there are drugs around but it's nowhere near as bad as some of the 'sink' estates that are classed as no go areas.

There are some out there though who don't get listened to, are condemned because they were born and bred on the 'sink' estates. These places have usually been given up on by the authorities and left to their own devices.

My point being that not all are listened to. Again I don't excuse or condone the actions of any of the people rioting. I'm simply saying there is no one size fits all excuse/reason for these riots.

Another link for you which includes an aspiring social worker and a millionaires daughter.

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16047959

Well said Rita.

Cat, I agree there are problems, severe problems of deprivation in some areas, and huge stigma attached to it, but what happens. We try to police these estates, and a war ensues between police and residents, yet they moan about lawlessness. That is why authorities have given up on them, because these are often people who reject practical help, improvements are damaged almost as soon as they are made, nobody has any respect for their own backyard, let alone the property of others. The drug and gang culture has taken over and police are powerless to do anything.

Our laws need to be enforced properly, and we need to get rid of all this human rights claptrap that comes down on the side of the criminal and leaves the victim of crime isolated and alienated.

I accept that you did not mean to cause any offence Rita,
.

I DID genuinely find it offensive, and thought reporting it to GR left it to them to decide whether it was or was not ( and also know that you are not always around after posting to edit if asked)

I am aware we hold opposite views on most things concerning immigration etc...

No personal offence was meant, and I will remove my own posts as you have done if you wish?

Back to basics:

Get the children to attend school, apply appropriate penalties to the whole family if they do not comply.
Allow teaching staff to restrain children who are disrupting classes and physically attacking their fellow pupils.
Allow policemen to give a clip around the ear and drag the oik back to his/her house and tell the parents, in no uncertain terms, if they are picked up again they will be charged with a disorder offense.
Allow parents to chastise their children in the way they see fit.
Ensure that children leave school having attained qualifications in the basic requirements to obtain employment. If they fail, they stay on for a further year until they damn well equip themselves with something useful.
Enforce the law re carrying weapons in public - incarcerate them.
Have the so-called celebrities to condemn this violence but at the same time stop getting involved in fights themselves *fat chance*.

All the above in no particular order or sense, just my musings.

Sue

Well Sue,you do touch on some important issues here.I'm sorry to say that the educational policies and ethos of the last twenty years or so.The headlong rush to concentrate on purely academia has been an absolute disaster.Equal priority must be given to vocational traning to equip those who are not academically suited,and to enable them to live useful lives.

Rose and Cat, it won't surprise you but I do agree with you both:) I wouldn't have reported that post, Rose but I understand your reasons.

Sue, I agree with almost all of that - a couple of exceptions though - "Allow parents to chastise their children in the way they see fit" ? Surely there have to be some guidelines - just for an example one junior school friend of mine had a dad who was basically a sadistic bastard but acted to his own lights - smacking is one thing and beating is another.

The other thing I feel uneasy about is allowing police to give people a "clip around the ear" - the police clearly need more powers than they have now, few would disagree but I'm old enough to remember how far a "clip around the ear" could lead and I wouldn't like to go back to then.

Agree William, that is why I have always condemned the axing of the old secondary modern and technical colleges.

Edit:

Uggers I know that there will always be parents who abuse their children, that will happen whether or not the current childrens' rights are revoked.

I am only speaking from a parents standpoint, my children were punished according to the severity of their naughtiness. If one of them was found to be acting like a thug in public I would have been glad that a PC had dragged them home. The point would have been made loud and clear.

Sue

Thankyou Uggers :-)

Hello again, Glad things have cooled a little, Rose you post what you feel you should,just as long as it does,nt get blitzed like the previous one,its good to read others viewpoint on this matter.(I bet your a little terror when you really get Passionate. ;-).I noticed lots of people talking about "Depravation",well they should go back a few years and take a look at what people put up with without Rioting and Looting. Back to Back Houses,Toilet in the Backyard,Bathing in a Tin Bath,No central Heating or Hotwater unless you boiled it in a Kettle .this was what people put up with untill the 50s/60s in a lot of places Tenements in Glasgow etc. Thats Depravation.Not what there is available now,plus plenty of handouts to all and sundry,with out I might Add The Means Test Which was applied then.So why the thieving ,Burning ,Rioting Etc.?, It seems to me that we have now got people of the calibre of I want, I will have even if it means stealing or assaulting others to get it.That has to stop,not as the Civil Servants Say, All in Due Course,But now. The police are undermand so call in the Army. preferably an Infantry regt. who have the ability of Riot Control,with water cannon etc..Please keep posting as it is Important that all peoples views are heard,as long as there is nothing nasty said to each other. Thanks.**M** :-D

"Like a terrier with a rat " was one description of me Merlin :-0

but i am taking my passion off to cool for a while.

I like Terriers and Alsatians,so you keep on posting .I,ve got aq Very Very large Cat .He frightens all sorts of people,but he,s a Softie really. Take Care. :-D.**M**.

Thanks Uggers :-)

"Allow parents to chastise their children in the way they see fit."

Sue, I'll assume you're thinking about smacking with this bit. I know some parents, both m/c and w/c, who don't believe in smacking but do believe in discipline and teaching their children how to behave. I've known some parents who have no problems with smacking, or as Uggers has said belting their child, but cannot be bothered to teach them how to behave in the first place. They prefer them to be out of their way, playing somewhere, not really bothered what they are up to.

Thats very true, I think with some (Not All ) parents its a case of "Out Of Sight,Out Of Mind" plus of course there is the lack of self control. Also from what I have heard and seen ,the teaching in our schools is not very good, ( As in not making it Interesting for the Pupils) and they get bored.and when people get like that they jump at anything to distract them,sadly for some its the wrong way. :-S.**M**.

We DO need parents to take full responsibility for the behaviour of their children. When I was at school, if I got in trouble there, (not that I did much, just chattering in class or caught smoking) I'd also get a clip when I got home and sent to my room, no questions asked, so it was a double whammy.

These days, parents have a tendency to go marching into the school to have a go at the teachers when their kids have got a detention for misbehaving! Sure that's taking responsibility...NOT!

Children need structured, disciplined and organised home life, not left to do whatever the hell they like, roaming the streets like feral rats. ASBO's aren't the answer, they are proudly worn like a trophy now.

Thats true Teresa - it was only duri g a chance conversation around the dinner table some years ago when I discovered that both iof my children had each been caned once during their school days. My cry of 'I never knew that' was responded to by 'if we had told you we would have been in trouble again'.

Welcome to a stale and sterile board where we're only allowed to hear one side of any given debate !

*shakes head sadly*

Fully agree about the education system - comprehensives aren't 'for all' anymore, and league tables have ensured that the less academic are sidelined.
HOWEVER, I've come across quite a few children with the attitude that it's 'not cool' to accept education, and spent their time disrupting classes.

As for Peckham, my daughter went to University with a lovely girl who was born & brought up there.
Can you recall the Channel 4 'scene' that appears between programmes- where the number 4 appears. Well the one where there are nasty looking council flats - that looks a lot like where my daughter's friend lived.
I say lived, because after Uni, her father got cancer, and my daughter's friend went back to nurse him for 3 years. When he died, she wasn't allowed to stay inthe flat - and was heartbroken - she loved that place.

TBH, William,like many 'experts' - who have never experienced certain things, you are looking at other people's lives through your own eyes and imagining you know how they may be feeling. True, empathy is needed - but a bit of realism is also necessary, and true empathy for the 'underclass' isn't possible from a cosy suburban life. A life that not all people strive for, believe it or not.

I was a child of a service family an spent a vast amount of my childhood, because my mum refused to live in married quarters, living in a caravan.

According to 'experts' in education, children of servicemen, because they move around a lot are considered 'disruptive'. Children who travel the country in caravans are considered 'Travellers' - and are also 'disruptive'.
So, according to 'experts' me and my siblings should have been amongst the worst of pupils, and the least educated.
In those far off days, it must be remembered that there was no general curriculum, so we'd learn some facts about the Romans at one school, move,and find the next school half way through the Tudors!!!

We had a choice, decide it was too difficult, get bored, and disruptive, go with the flow and pick up what we could, or read up about it.
As most books were thrown out after being read(lack of space)we tended to go with the flow.

We HAD to go to school, so made the best of it.

Nowadays, there's very chance we would have been followed by social workers. I slept on a board and foam cushion placed over the (unplumbed-in) bath. Some night it was so cold the cat got into bed with me to keep warm, and I was covered with everyone's coats!!
All 4 of us children (2 boys and 2 girls) slept in the same area of the caravan until I was 7, my sister 11 and my brothers 13 & 14 - when we got a bigger caravan!!!

Many people at the time thought it was a disgusting way to live - no running water, outside chemical toilet etc.
We knew no different, even though we had lived in a very nice house before the caravans, that was just the way things were.

It did teach me one thing - You really shouldn't judge a book by it's cover!!!