General Chat

Hi William,

As Suzanne said, what are the underlining issues???

There is no excuse for lawlessness and definitely no excuses for depriving innocent, hardworking people of their homes and businesses.

There is an underclass in this country that has been allowed to get away with awful behaviour for far too long.

Everyone is welcome to demonstrate peacefully but the extent of these riots proves that a lot of people have no respect for their own neighbourhoods.

I have no sympathy for any of them until they grow up and either realise they live in a community and must act accordingly or else until they move on. No-one wants them.

Hear hear Helen..very well said !

And, William, I see nobody being 'smug' as you call it. I see people who care very much about our country and the deprivation who are trying to get their heads around a situation that has errupted and pondering the reasons.

I see they didn't venture out in the rain. My OH said yesterday, 'We need rain, that'll keep them in'. So he was right.

Wonders if anyone will admit to pressing the RR button????

It wasn't me. I wonder what Rita said????

In New Zealand, the media haven't yet put a particular label on those rioting/looting/killing. I hope that people (including media) stereotype people they think might be involved as branding people by race, culture and/or economic status just fuels the fire. By now there will be some very invisible, educated and political groups organising all of the violence. It is very sad, and I must say those those of us who have done our OE (overseas experience) are distressed to see our 'London' being violated. Sad sad sad. What is happening is not an indictment of a whole country, it seems to me as though the practices of multicultural living and democracy have been abused. Human Rights are what keeps ordinary people way more civilised than any extremist. Where would I rather live - the UK or the USA - give me the UK every time!

In New Zealand, the media haven't yet put a particular label on those rioting/looting/killing. I hope that people (including media) stereotype people they think might be involved as branding people by race, culture and/or economic status just fuels the fire. By now there will be some very invisible, educated and political groups organising all of the violence. It is very sad, and I must say those those of us who have done our OE (overseas experience) are distressed to see our 'London' being violated. Sad sad sad. What is happening is not an indictment of a whole country, it seems to me as though the practices of multicultural living and democracy have been abused. Human Rights are what keeps ordinary people way more civilised than any extremist. Where would I rather live - the UK or the USA - give me the UK every time!

Ruth, It is not just London but Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol and other towns and cities where we are having the copy cat rioting. In fact we had people killed in Birmingham in a car incident.

Yes, i did! having written a long and reasoned argument as to why it was inappropriate of Rita to connect the riots and immigrants in her post I thought "sod it you are banging your head against a brick wall here...just ask GR to remove it!"

But for those who care to read I still have most of my response...

"Rita, I will say it again, what have immigrants to do with this? nothing!

What is a young white lad from Birmingham? not an immigrant! a 20 odd year old from Salford spouting crap about immigrants taking the jobs...he will NEVER get a job because he hasn't got a brain!...he's not an immigrant...what is a black kid fron London whose grandparents settled here in the '60s? not an immigrant.

You may very well be right on some points, but your whole argument is lost when you bang on about immigrants as if they are somehow the cause of everything wrong in this country. It goes much deeper than that, to the greed and lack of compassion , to the ME ME ME generations encouraged to be like that.

Go to a hospital and be bloody grateful for the immigrant nurse who cares for you, go to the shop which stays open late and be grateful for the immigrant who works unsocial hours, get a carpenter who actually turn up and be grateful for the immigrant.... and then look at some of the wasters we have in this country, born in this country, who will never leave this country...and who have no pride in, or respect for,this country."

And if Rita wishes to report my post , or anyone does , they are most welcome to do so... I have had enough of the closet and not so closet racism that has been spewed onto these boards at times without let or hindrance. (though to be accurate it is less than I have seen elsewhere in the last few days!)

There is no proof that immigrants took part in any of these riots...it is a blind assumption , an easy target, another 'excuse' which sounds remarkably like the excuses given by some of those rioting!

It is up to GR to decide if it broke T & Cs...in my opinion it did... I don't normally report posts by people who have an opposing view to me who put it well and with some degree of back-up for their opinions ( and I have 'backed-off' a large number of times with deference to age, or fragility from saying what I think of posts) ,but as said I am sick to the back teeth of the knee jerk 'send them back to where they came from' attitude that is the 'socially acceptable' face of the creeping nastiness and bigotry of the far right.

If this offends I apologise, but it's how I see it and you won't have to put up with my view much longer anyway.

I agree that these riots have nothing at all to do with immigration or race.

However, imho I'd rather leave a view I didn't agree with up and engage in a debate rather than stifle someone else's point of view by requesting it's removal.

Whether we agree or not EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion.

I only ever report posts in cases of personal abuse....and haven't done so for a very long time x

Well said, Rose.

It will be a sad day when GR loses your voice, even less reason now for my occasional visits.

Gwynne
x

Well said Rose.

A couple of links for you, if you can be bothered to read/listen to them, your choice.

The first mentions the underlying reasons William mentioned.

The second is the father of one of the men killed in Birmingham that Ann has mentioned.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMxwrrLFxxo

As for community, well it rejected/ostracised many of what some call the underclass years ago. Try reading the first link, if you can be bothered, with an open mind.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion?

Even if that opinion is spouting racism or some form of bigotry?


I thought racism was illegal.

That's a bit high handed Rose if you don't mind me saying so.

Other members have the perfect right to read what Rita had to say and make their own decisions about her views.

You have been given the opportunity to give the counter view at the same time as you stifled hers.

Your choice of course...but Rita is also a paying member of these boards..seems a bit unfair to me that she isn't being given the chance to speak her mind because her views are unpopular.

Anyway...that's my two pennarth..Off to watch the daily politics.....

Muffy, if Rita feels her opinion is valid she can repost it, or GR will if they consider it appropriate...

Just because someone pays to post here does not entitle them to post anything and everything they choose without any shred of evidence does it? or offend another member with that view ...that is what the T & Cs are there for...and I used the facilty that I PAY for also!

Well, just heard that one of the scum being charged drove up from Winchester with tools for the sole purpose of looting!!!!!
There are poor people in Winchester, amongs the very wealthy - but he obviously wasn't a member of the'underclass' - he had tools, a car, and could afford the fuel!!!

Just a selfish 'chancer', with no thought for anyone else but himself and his greed.

The glory of hearing the morons bleating about why they did what they did on the radio, is that I have absolutely no idea of their race, colour and, in a couple of cases - their sex :-D

Rose, I really think you need to calm down, getting steamed up isn't going to help anyone is it?

There are a multitude of reasons being bandied about for these riots. Some have suggested it's race, though it's clearly not. Some suggest it's because these kids have no voice, well time they started talking, nobody listens to silence. Some say its because they have no opportunity, no jobs, no further education, well take a look at who's been in court so far, trainee nurse, teacher, youth worker...yes people with jobs, prospects, education. Some say these kids are angry....well sorry, but society is angrier now.

The truth is, there IS no underlying reason for the looting, it is just greed, selfishness and sheer criminality. Nothing else. It is what it is. Prime example is the little *&^@*(&( in Manchester, 'It's against the police innit, its a freedom thing, we're free to do what we want today, and the police can't do nuffing!'

Oh yeah? Watch them. :-(

I wasn't aware I was trying "to help" anyone Teresa? or that I was "steamed up" ...being passionate about something is NOT the same as being steamed up. as I'm sure you recognise.

I reported a post I found extremely offensive. end of.

No, it's not just those on benefits who are doing it but there isn't just one reason for doing it either. I suspect if you ask different people they'll each come up with a different reason.

There is a tendency towards a sheep mentality amongst some human beings. One person says/starts something, a second and/or third agrees/follows then the rest join in, stupid yes, unacceptable, definitely, but it happens. This is how the 'angry mob' comes about, how vigilante groups form.

"Some suggest it's because these kids have no voice, well time they started talking, nobody listens to silence."

I found this interesting. How do you know they haven't been talking and simply been ignored by those in authority?

I'm not placing blame btw, many of these 'agencies' (for want of a better word) are under resourced/understaffed and cannot cope with the numbers of people need their help.

I'm not, incidentally, excusing anything but I did find the article in the Independent interesting, especially the last paragraph.

We are all passionat about this Rose, this is our country, and it's being presented to the rest of the world in a very negative light at the moment, but while exploring what may be the underlying cause, we are all entitled to our view, whether others like it or not.

I dont' always agree with Rita, though I can more often than not see where she is coming from, but she is 'old school' and will say it as it is and sod PC. Rita is as entitled to her view as much as anyone else, that is how debate, true debate is conducted which includes views that some may find offensive. As long as it is not inciting further violence I don't see anything wrong in voicing an opinion.

FYI I don't happen to agree with the views on immigrants either, most poeple are 2nd or third generation, therefore as british as the rest of us, and equally as proud of our country, and ashamed of the events of this week.

And I will also say, before any further stuff is said blaming immigrants, many of the people brandishing brooms this week were also immigrants.

The riots were criminality, nothing more nothing less.