General Chat

This thread is getting rather unpleasant - we are all entitled to our opinions. Certain laws, ie crash helmets, are for the riders safety, not to be a drain on the NHS when emergency and lengthy treatment is required.
To see someone die, possibly leaving young children, just because the bible says something along the lines of "take no man's blood" - which means do not stab someone and make them bleed. Blood transfusions were not even thought of in those times. People who will not have blood given to them, will have an operation, which puts a strain on the staff, knowing the possible risks of blood loss.
Sorry if this upsets anyone, but I think common sense should prevail,
Liz

Maggie, please. Please reply to what I said, and not what you wish I had said.

"Faisel DID make an attempt to allow women to not wear the burqa"

My question was not whether he attempted to ALLOW WOMEN TO NOT WEAR the burqa. (I use capitals in an effort at clarity.)

My question was whether he attempted to BAN WOMEN FROM WEARING the burqa.

That is the relevant issues here.

There are those in the UK who want to BAN WOMEN FROM WEARING the burqa. Not ALLOW WOMEN TO NOT WEAR the burqa.


"Oh - and when I met him I was wearing jeans and a very thin muslin top.
You can doubt and suspect what he really wanted all you like - it still doesn't change the fact that he was educated in britain and loved the place and all it's freedoms and wished his own people had half as much freedom."

Bully for you, and bully for him.

If only ou were actually resopnding to something I said, instead of making up trash and pretending I said it.


"As for quoting the strictures of other religions - has anyone suggested islam woman should cast off all their modesty? I don't think so."

And did I say someone had? So your point is?

My point was that MANY RELIGIONS have rules about women's so-called modesty.

And what I am wondering is why nobody is jumping all over those religions and the people who practise them, and demanding that these demeaning beliefs be squelched and these coerced practices stop.


A lot of people need to make up their mind what their argument is.


Is the notion that someone wearing a burqa might blow up a train station the real reason for the effort to ban it?

Then why not ban backpacks? If the concern is for public safety, that is what we need to do. We might look like authoritarians, and idiots to boot, but at least we wouldn't look like hypocrites.


Is a deep concern for women's equality what lies behind calls to ban the burqa?

Then why not ban the high heels that hobble and cripple women, and the entertainment programming that degrades and demeans women, and the advertising that exploits women, in our own societies? If we are REALLY concerned about women's equality, that's what we will do. We might be acting like dictators, but at least we wouldn't be hypocrites.


"The strictures of these ther religions all have one thing in common - the face is visible."

Actually, there are a gazillion more things they do NOT have in common. How about we focus on them? If someone wants to cover her face, it's her choice.

Or are we talking about terrorism now ......?

How am I supposed to tell what any of you all are talking about at any given instant?

It's terrorism / It's equality / It's terrorism / It's equality ...

I keep feeling like I've got trapped in a scene from Chinatown and can't get out.


"No-one has said the Hijab should be banned - it's the burqa, which hides the face.
Many women in moslem countries wear the hijab and not the burqa.
A lot wear western clothes too!"

Maggie, show me an ounce of respect, please.

Actually, a lot of peole do say the hijab should be banned. I didn't say anything about it. I said that MANY RELIGIONS place constraints on the dress of women. I am saying that if YOU or anyone else wants to distinguish the burqa from any other imposed dress requirement, someone needs to do that. Simply saying "the face is visible" doesn't cut it. I could distinguish between Orthodox Jewish constraints and Old Order Mennonite constraints by saying "the hair is visible" in the latter case. The distinction is meaningless unless I demonstrate something that makes it meaningful.

I am perfectly aware of what women in various predominantly Muslim countries -- and Muslim women in other countries -- wear. I have been well acquainted with Muslim (would you misspell Christian and omit the capital?) women from Somalia, Iran, Iraq and Lebanon, for starters, of more than one sect.

The burqa disgusts me. So do five-inch heels and inch-long painted fingernails and Playboy magazine and loads of other things that contribute to the relegation of women to inferior status. But I am not trying to ban any of them.

If I want to ban some practice, I feel a responsibility to come up with a coherent argument for my position.


This equality / terrorism / equality / terrorism dance, it's called "moving the goalposts". If I try to counter an argument based on "terrorism" and the comeback is about how women are being treated unequally, or vice versa, I'm just having my time wasted.

"This thread is getting rather unpleasant"

Yeah, Liz, I know I've always found bigotry unpleasant. Ever since before I learned in Sunday School that it was a bad thing.

I find it unpleasant when anybody tries to make anyone else do something for no reason but their own belief in their own superiority and the other's inferiority.

"To see someone die, possibly leaving young children, just because the bible says something along the lines of "take no man's blood" - which means do not stab someone and make them bleed. Blood transfusions were not even thought of in those times."

And? What? You think that competent adults should be tied down and tubes shoved in their arms that they don't want?

Lots of children are left parentless for lots of reasons. Let's ban everything that could leave a child parentless. Driving, for starters, I guess.


I, an atheist, would never be so utterly presumptuous as to tell someone what their religion really says. I have yet to figure out why a religious person would do that to another religious person. "Hey, you -- my interpretation of your religion is better than yours! You are obviously a stupid person. So now I may force you to do things you believe will harm your eternal soul." Yeesh.


"Sorry if this upsets anyone, but I think common sense should prevail"

Ah yes. Common sense. My way or the highway. If you don't like it, you have no sense, and so now we may force you to do what we want.


Myself, I think respect is the first thing that should prevail.

HI Kay,
Interesting that the majority of the boys (and many of the girls) in the vast Royal family of Saudi Arabia were educated in Britain isn't it? LOL

What was Faisel 2 like?
Faisel 1 found it hilarious when I infomed him that the dog got more respect than me. When he asked me why - I had to tell him!!

Parents & I went to a party . My parents (for some unknown reason) went home and left me!! I got a little 'squiffy' - yes you can get alcohol in 'dry' countries - and a (male) friend walked me home.
Then came the problem - parents had locked the gate - walls were 12 ft high - dog (who wasn't too keen on intruders) was loose.
I decided the dog had known the friend longer than he'd known me - so he had to climb the wall.
Fortunately the dog decided he smelt 'right' and let him over the wall - unlike some poor arab who'd tried to climb over, and ended up with a sore foot.

Then I decided to break another 'rule' and - with friend in tow -walked the dog!
(for Janeys benefit - it was illegal for women to walk dogs because, apparently, according to the censored papers received out there ie half a 'Sun' LOL western women did disgusting things with dogs - but that'll be okay as it's part of their culture surely?)

Anyhoo - It was 4am, but there were people about.
I had the dog on a long rope, which I loosened if any (male) came near me.
Most people in the neighbourhood knew he was Faisel's prime Saluki sire - and were terrified of him!
(My dad chose the dog as a very young pup, and when put in the weaning pen, he had killed all the other male pups - hence our visit to King Faisel - to let the dog 'do his business' with the bitches!) Dad wanted him castrated, but had agreed with Faisel that he'd wait until the dog was 3.

I think this reputation, and the fact that if any workmen came to the house, who went to get anything from their van, couldn't get back in past the open gate without one of us saying 'okay' to the dog - well they could - but not very far before they had a dog clinging onto their buttocks!!

He was, in reality, a big lazy softy who adored young children.

"(for Janeys benefit - it was illegal for women to walk dogs because, apparently, according to the censored papers received out there ie half a 'Sun' LOL western women did disgusting things with dogs - but that'll be okay as it's part of their culture surely?)"

Are you asking me some kind of question?

If you have a question to ask me, why don't you try doing it?

I know why.

Because it is so much more fun to make up trash and act like it came out of my mouth.

And hey, maybe somebody will believe it did.

What a waste of tme.

I think Burkas are rather fetching actually. Combined with a turban and stillettos, of course.

Janey,
Strangely enough, whilst having tea with king Faisel we were CHATTING, not particularly discussing the problems of the world - his or mine.

It never crossed my mind that one day, many years later, a Canadian woman would attempt to cross examine me and study the semantics of a bit of friendly banter.

I bet you're real fun at a party!! LOL

LOL Eldrick - they wore platforms & hot pants under them when I was out there - and most young men wore hairgrips - to hold their head dress in place over their (illegal) sideburns!!!

"Janey,
Strangely enough, whilst having tea with king Faisel we were CHATTING, not particularly discussing the problems of the world - his or mine."

Maggie, strangely enough, there really is a very simple answer to my question.

Faisel never tried to ban the burqa, or any other form of dress, in Saudi Arabia.

Some people want to ban the burqa in the UK. That's the subject of discussion here.

So Faisel's thoughts, or the lovely get-up you were in when you went to have tea with him, or any other way you can think of working your intimate friendship with the dear man into this conversation, are of no relevance whatsoever.

The subject is the effort to ban the burqa in the UK. Do feel free to address it.


Oh, and don't forget to mention my nationality.

Why, otherwise, someone might mistake me for someone with something worthwhile to say!

About as transparent as that lovely top you wore to tea with the king.

Women in burqas HAVE COMMITTED NO CRIMES in
England.

OHHH yes they have ,
St John's market Liverpool , ( last year )



I can only assume they are women ,

Karen

BREAKING NEWS!!!
Syria (92.2% Moslem) has banned the Niqab(Burqa) in public universities. The ban - (and wait for this) 'aims to protect Syria's secular identity'

Full story here:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jV_-6kvuvHLoKhskSm80Smyln5vAD9H2BJEG0

Worth a read - the reasons women give for wearing the Niqab are varied.

Janey I quote you:
' So Faisel's thoughts, or the lovely get-up you were in when you went to have tea with him, or any other way you can think of working your intimate friendship with the dear man into this conversation, are of no relevance whatsoever.'

I find that deeply offensive, I said we chatted - am I to presume (as you have done in many replies) that, as far as you're concerned, if anyone chats with someone, some sort of intimacy is/should be involved?

I merely pointed out that I wore jeans in reply to a previous diatribe by yourself.

Strikes me that, in your world politeness in conversation means nothing of any value can be obtained, unless everything is written down in triplicate and a signed statement is taken.

great debate joy xxx

Women should be free to dress how they please - Not how they are ordered to dress by a repressive patriarchal religion founded by nomadic goat herders 1500 years ago, that regards all women as no better than property!

Ban all religions-that would solve most world problems!


xxxxxx mixk

well I have to say that without a doubt, Janey is the most eloquent person I have ever encountered - anywhere - not just on these boards. I was going to say you should be a politician Janey but that would be an insult given the way they act these days - over here anyway.

I do not like the face covered with a veil and never will but you have persuaded me not to be quite so judgemental

Maggie,

Very westernised......he was called just Faisel.}but his life was mapped out with tradition.

i likes dogs theys haves big bushy tails xx

lmao @ eldrick .[you read my mind.lol]

still feel the same ive not changed me mind.

also just to clarify this.i hate any kind of racist stuff ,its about what i see as fair.i have friends in different countries ,and love to learn about there way of life .i just feel to make all even if everyone is treated the same theres no problems.no matter what it is.

I used to have my chair legs covered up, but rebelled and instead they are now in black leather thigh length boots, just to show that I am not stigmatising chair legs as unsavoury objects. I think it's a good idea but it can be embarrassing buying them. Thank god for mail order via the internet.