Genealogy Chat

Hi Derek,

I have looked at 1841 census again and it reads ..
St Martins at Market Place
Leicester
Mary Winchester age 50
Lydia Winchester age 45
Elizth Harley age 20 ... have blown this up several times and I feel it says .. Harley
image from Ancestry.com.uk web site

All dates fit in with Elizabeths parents being Julia and Henry Harley ( info also from parish records and the IGI ).. and she is not with her parents in the 1841 census , they are under the 'Hartley' name in the St Marys district of Leicester ... . as you can see this research has not been easy, due to misspelling/mistranscribing of info from the census.


But.. I am open to all corrections....

Will be away at the end of next week, so may not get back to you for a few days ....... off to Perth Western Australia to celebrate a friends 60th birthday... just a 5 hour flight and then a 6 hour drive and then we arrive at Onerup , which means , meeting place of the kangaroos .. but what a beautiful place.. out in the " OUTBACK OF AUSTRALIA'


I hope everyone celebrates EASTER in their own special way....

Cheers.
Karen of Brisbane


EDIT NOTE... Elizabeth is Bap Elizabeth Morely Harley on 26 May 1822 at St Margaret Leicester... K

Hi Derek
We have been in contact before re Joseph Vernon marriage to Hannah ? sometime in late 1700s/early 1800s in Derbyshire. There are certainly a lot of Hannahs around at the time I see. You checked Brailsford for me but not there. Thought maybe Ashbourne, Longford or even Derby. Also the birth of Thomas Vernon to Joseph & Hannah Vernon anywhere in Derbyshire, 1810-11.

Thanks
Cheers

Michele

Hi Michelle..the best i can do for the moment (I'm off to Matlock records Office again next week)..is the following

I havbe found no early Vernons yet......are your dates right?? becasue Brailsford/Longford.Ashbourne is definitley the right neck of the woods.

Joseph Vernon (1809) married Hannah (1807) about 1846
They had six children including Thomas born 1851..the lived at Lonford lane Longford.
Joseph was a Mason..Tombstone Engraver, and local Wesleyan Preacher!!
If they are in fact Weslaeyans that might be why they are so hard to find because we need the Non-conformist Parish Records..

I'll have a look in Matlock for you.

Derek

Hello Derek, When you run out of things to do (!!) could you look for the following?.....Harriet Gertrude Todd. Born approx 1877. Her census records always show birthplace as Derby.(An elderley aunt thinks Matlock but not sure)....................thankyou for your time...................jill

Hi Derek
Thanks for that information but Thomas definitely born around 1810 (definitely died Stoke on Trent 1901 aged 91. Buried Hartshill cemetery). Only know his father's name was Joseph from marriage certificate of 2nd marriage of Thomas in 1866. Profession of Joseph given as bricklayer. Thomas lived in Stoke on Trent, Staffordshire in 1841,1851 & 1861. (Have all census records) He was married to a Sarah Elson (died around 1860?) but I have been unable to find any record of their marriage or of Sarah's christening (in Madeley?) or of the birth of a son Stephen (born 1830?) listed with them in 1841 & 1851 census. I have full details (birth, 2 marriages & death) of their younger son John born 1841.
Thomas' birthplace is variously listed on census records as Rocester or Alton, Staffordshire & as Derbyshire. He may have been born one place & christened in another. On IGI in Rocester & Alton there is a Jane Vernon (1813) & an Elizabeth Vernon (1810/11) who I believe may be Thomas' sisters. On IGI their parents are listed as Joseph & Hannah. Having seen the Joseph & Hannah you mention I have looked at some Wesleyan records but to no avail.
Thomas is as far back as I can get with this line of our family. I have found no Joseph Vernon marriage in Rocester or Alton or any birth of a Thomas or Joseph Vernon around the right dates in those registers so thought nearby Derbyshire worth a try. From IGI I did find a Thomas (with a father Joseph) born 1809 at Longford & somewhere I have found a marriage between a Joseph Vernon & Hannah Shelton 1809 at Longford.
Also I did find a Joseph Vernon (born 1790, Brailsford) in 1851 census a bricklayer listed as married but living with an unmarried housekeeper in Quarndon, Belper, Duffield. Across at Alton there is a Hannah Vernon who lists herself as wife of a bricklayer but no husband present. She is with married daughter, Jane Sparrow (nee Vernon & her family). Probably clutching at straws making this connection but this search is sooo difficult.
Sorry this is such a rant
Would love to get that one step back.

Michele

Michele

Have just acquired the Parish records for HOPE in Derbyshire, if anyone needs anything from them, just shout!

Derek

jillignite.......Hi Jill.....I have searched high and low for you and come up with nothing......I have Harriet..and Gertrude in various Guises,,,,,but nothing to show a derby provenance. have you any other information??

Derek

Derek, thankyou for your time regarding Harriet Todd. I think it has been entered as Harriet Gertrude FODD. However I sent off for the cert(1877/Derby/07B/504) but the records office say that the reference in the index is wrong;due to an error made when the index was compiled. Where does this leave my search? Is there any way she can be traced? I'm relieved that she was actually registered!.........jill

Hi Jill..I'll trawl through some of my Parish records....see if i can find anything....Have found Harriet Gertrude FODD in Derbyshire BMD;s 1877 Derby......but not on the census..more later.....

OK..ADDITION..I think I might have cracked it:

HARRIET TODD born Derby 1877

Father: James Todd...Fancy Glass Maker of Camberwell London..
and his wife Harriet formerly of Peckham London..

Son Charles b 1874 Camberwell
Daughter Harriet..(no mention of Gertrude) b DERBY 1877.

But for some reason by 1881 they have moved back to 96 Edmund Street Camberwell.

So perhaps he moved to Derby for some kind of short time work contract with his wife and baby Charles...had Harriet in 1877...and before 1881 they all went back home!!
Any good to you??

Derek

Hi Derek, this is my Harriet.Yes they moved around a lot! I was really hoping to get hold of a cert to flesh things out and find out where they lived. Does this mean that there is a cert somewhere but that it never can be found?........jill

Hi Jill..well there must be a certificate.because the FODD baptism has a Folio and page number, as you have found. That clearly is mistranscription.
I don't have the Derby parish records, so can't see the original till i next go to the Matlock Records Office..which i will do.
Derek.

Hello Derek, hope you're well ! , would really appreciate your help with Joseph Gorse 1793 from Mackworth ,is it possible to find a marriage for him to a Mary?
He was the son of James and Sarah(ratcliff) i have the following children for Joseph and Mary.... I THINK!! all from Mackworth,
Eliza 1821
Mary 1824
Emma 1825?
Joseph 1828
John 1830
Emma 1831?... bapt dates would be a bonus . lol
Also did Joseph have a brother Levi 1791 also from Mackworth??

Sorry i know it's a lot to ask.. many thanks

Gillx

EDIT**** Where is HOPE!?? Ha Ha.. best get the map out!

Hi again Gill..no Joseph Gorse ever baptised at Mackworth.
You are no doubt aware that the 18th century GORSE family were called GORST or GOSSE......so we have JOSEPH GORST bapt mackworth 16.12.1773.

Joseph Gorse married Mary SHARP at Mackworth 18.07.1819 and had the following children (no Joseph!)

Eliza baptised 15.01.1827
Mary 04.10.1824
Emma 05.04.1826.died 15.01.1827
SARAH..not Joseph..27.01.1828
John 26.03.1830 died 21.11.1830
Emma 10.10.1831

There is what i take to be a mistranscription
Allt the children of Joseph (Turner/wheelmaker) were baptised at St.Werbergh's Derby.

Sarah 27.01.1828 is the duaghter of Joseph (Turner/wheelwright) batised St. Werbergh's Derby...............mother shown as Ann..
which has to be wrong becasue there is no record of joseph and Ann..and the entry is right in the middle of an identical block of children..of Joeseph and mary Sharp.

HOPE springs eternal.......lol..and is in the very north of Derbyshire ,as in Hope Valley..where there are no doubt eternal springs!!

Derek

Me again. I am now on the trail of John Frith, born Eyam, christened 10 March 1805, parents William and Martha. Siblings Hannah 1801, Joseph 1803, Amy 1807 and William 1810. John moved to Macclesfield, so I have his details. Anything you can find about John Frith and his wife Martha gratefully appreciated.

The family became quite famous in Macclesfield, as their eldest son, Joseph, became the first Registrar of Deaths at Macclesfield Municipal Cemetery, and his brother Alfred succeeded him in about 1888.

Margaret

Hi again Gill..an afterthought to my previous message..see below..

As far as i can see joseph did not have as brother Levi..but the children of James and Sarah (Ratcliff) were as follows:

Joseph 1793
Catherine 1795
Thomas 1797
James 1799....bapt. 21.12.1799
Ann 21.04.1802 died 05.05.1802
Henry 28.02.1803
Samuel 10.06.1805
Ann (no2)01.03.1808
William 25.04.1810

The reason that Joseph Gorse ( and catherine and Thomas) do not appear in the mackworth baptisms..ios because they are listed in the St.Werbergh Derby baptisms..and obviously james and Sarah had the rest of their brood in Mackworth

Now for a very large Scotch!!

Derek

Hi Margaret............what's this Madmeg bit?? lol....actually i did see somewhere that you said you changed your name..
Ok..I have the Eyam records as you know.......but unfortunately they only confirm your data.....William and Martha did not marry in Eyam..neither did John..practice was to marry in the bride's parish.

Masses of Frith's going back to 1636.........but unfortunately I can't link to your William and martha becasue there is no William born betweem 1727 and 1807..would have to have been a very old goat to have sired John 1805.
Strangely there is an older William and Martha

all i can do is give you the baptism dates for John and his siblings:

JOHN BFRITH baptised 10.03.1805
Amy 25.09.1807
Hannah 05.04.1801
Joseph 28.01.1803. married Sarah Bradshaw 30.08.1825
William 26.03.1810.....

I'll have a look for other Friths in the locality of Eyam (was up there over Easter!)

Derek

Hi gill..remeber when you poke your nose into other peep's trees.you never know how much guessing has gone on.......leading to massive trouble....I only pass on stuff I'm sure about..with the odd bit of info that i make clear is either a hunch or unconfirmed......'But i'll check the Mary maddock bit for you.

Derek

Derek,thats why i always check with you first! BUT lay off the scotch till you've checked! ll

Gill

Hi Derek

Re my change of name, I got into a bit of tussle with a less-than-polite Genes member and it was easier to change my ID and sign myself Maggie - though I keep forgetting that! Anyway, I am not going to get into a tussle with you, so it doesn't matter.

It would seem then that William Frith and Martha married elsewhere, perhaps also born elsewhere. Most of the males for at least 3 subsequent generations were all stone masons - but it seems that so was anyone called Frith born in North Derbyshire around that time!

Found a William Frith age 60 (+) in 1841, mason, in Milton, Bradshaw Edge (which to me is Chinley), but dead by 1851 so can't determine where born. Also in 1851, William Frith b 1810 in Eyam, a "Stone Getter" living Combs Edge, Chapel-en-le-Frith.

John Frith married in Macclesfield, so I have that, thanks.

So perhaps William and Martha were from Chapel-en-le-Frith or thereabouts.

See what you can do.

Margaret (alias Maggie!)

Oh, Derek, just a thought, but do you have any Staffordshire records? Leek in particular. I'm searching a marriage of Thomas Braddock about 1822 to a Mary. But she could have been a second wife, as there are gaps between children. In fact, gaps between them all - Sarah 1822, George 1829, Hannah 1836 and Mary Ann 1842. So he could have had several wives! But the mother of Mary Ann is Mary, and it is her I am primarily interested in. Staffordshire is particularly badly served by the IGI, second worst is Macclesfield, which suprises me as Macc has a huge Mormon Church.

Best wishes

Margaret (Maggie or Madmeg!)