General Chat

I think that's why the students were protesting Brian: so that others wouldn't end up with 30k+ worth of debt.

I must be a little un understood.
I do agree with the protest. It's just well meaning people attend protest and sometimes there is an unexpected infiltration that cause mayhem. and then that makes the media a good negative story.
those who may cause and encourage disorder.. may well be young people who are encouraged to mask up and turn the protest into a negative protest.
there may be people in goverment who would be happy to derail good honest protest.

Its always the same when I try and quote anything,I always seem to get it wrong.lol

I'm only too pleased to make a contribution to the debate about these matters.A debate that when presented fairly,those of us with a progressive viewpoint will always win.

Regards
William Russell Jones.

Sometimes what people see on tv can be things orchestrated by people who really wan't good honest protest to look really bad.
I don't trust any media i see.
Am i thinking some in goverment may pay a few yobs to derail peacfull protest then i think yeh given past protest i really do beleive this happens.

William you havent got it wrong you are 100% correct
don't feel that way it's very difficult to debate without direct retort.
I feel exactly the same as you, you can feel a little un understood with e Debate.
Brian

I always think 1 good phone call is better than 30 texts you sometimes just can't here the way some people reply. It's the changes in tone that get lost on here and i would like to think my tones would be complementing others veiwpoint on here. good healthy debate is what also made this country good.
Brian

Well no-one can argue with that :)

William, I've agreed with every one of your comments!

BTW, we have had protests in Winchester - anyone seen them in the media? No, of course not. One attempt at 'infiltration' into Hampshire County Council HQ came to an abrupt end when a couple of the students saw their mothers waving from windows!! LOL

BUT our children have been 'done down' by the Lib Dems, who undoubtedly got a lot of votes by declaring that further education should be free, then totally backing down.
How can we expect our children to tell the truth when their 'leaders' openly lie?
They have every right to be angry.
...and I will be heartly thankful when politicians stop referring to 'the poor' as if they are aliens from another planet .

maggie - who got a degree 11 years ago and is earning a lot less than £21,000. Thankfully I took it because I wanted to - not because I thought I would earn a fortune......
but is well p*ssed off that those earning twice what she does don't seem to have a basic grasp of their native tongue, basic computing or organisational skills!!!

My son 15 wants to go to uni after he does college. All of this has worried me to death, 3 grand to find per year is bad enough let alone.9 grand. It also worried me him taking out a loan.

But hubby has explained to me, that they can pay back this lone only IF they earn over £21000 once they get a job. Even then they will only pay back around £7.50 a month, even if it is for 30 years its such a small amount it wont be missed.

I must say its made me feel a bit better about the situation..Although I do think trebling the fees is a massive hike, & monies could be reaped back from other ventures before they hit education.

As for the protests. again I agree with them if peaceful. But not as they are with the minorities being violent. I don't lay blame on the police. You can never match the amount of police to the amount of protesters. They have to do what the can to restrain the yobs, even if innocent protesters get caught up in it. Its the risk any peaceful protester takes, knowing there will be violence & they may get caught up in it. Its their choice to attend, but the police have no choice. Its part of their job & they must go & do what they can under extreme conditions.

My o.h.'s son went to Uni, graduated in 2004 and owed quite a lot of money which had to be paid off, even tho he got some local grant towards things and his mother claimed she was a single parent and he got some help.
I can understand the annoyance of the people who feel betrayed by Clegg and there aren't just students who feel upset at the way the government is charging in and changing things so I am sure we will have further troubles to watch when all these people end up out of work due to cuts but then are told they have to take just any job - what jobs? - or lose benefit.
I saw some youngsters with bandanas across their faces but were still easily recognisable, saying that they were from council estates where they might have been able to go to uni before but now wouldn't be able to afford to so might end up getting into bother on the streets instead with no jobs available to them.
Will there be enough future jobs for graduates even if they can bear the cost and do their degrees?
I was impressed at some of the young people spoken to who were polite but firm and very articulate and informed.
I think it's going to be a case of suck it and see and time will tell whether the new rules work, seems there is provision for poorer families to get help with the costs.

Lizx

The thing is, those who wont get financial help are those such as my son whose family earnings are not low enough for help, but not
high enough to be classed as better off.

The rich get a chance, the poor get help, so what of the gifted & clever kids in between. As always, its miss out or struggle to pay for what some get for free.- sorry but it just irks me.

Why do I "pick on" you, Rita?

I don't. I find many of the things you say grossly awful, and I say so.

You haven't answered anything I asked before, so there's little point asking anything else.

But once again ...

"They are entittled to freedom of speech which they would not have had if it had not been for the men wh'os memorial statue they defaced.
So that means they can go on the rampage and do all this damage. is that what you would call freedom of speech ?"

Who are THEY?

Two people peed on the Winston Churchill statue, I believe. And not everyone worships Winston Churchill in the first place.

Why would you ask me whether I call causing property damage freedom of speech?

I referred to the report here (from an eye-witness) of someone being pulled from a wheelchair. That person was at the demonstration to protest government policies, not to cause property damage -- I assume, since it's hard to do that from a wheelchair.

And I just get so tired of all this blabber about men fighting in wars to give me freedom of speech.

Men fight in wars for lots of reasons. And a whole lot more people are to thank for my freedom of speech, and all the other rights and freedoms we all have, than men who fight in wars.

In any event, what earthly good does it do to worship at the feet of men who fight in wars, for all the rights and freedoms they allegedly gave us, if we don't use those rights and freedoms when they're needed??

What earthly point is there in blabbering on about men fighting in wars to give us rights and freedoms, and then saying that people who exercise them, to protest and try to change government policies, should expect to get beaten up by cops?

Did some of these men fight in wars so that university tuition fees could be priced out of reach of ordinary people, by the way?

One stupid little spoiled brat decided to swing from the Union Flag that was hanging from the Cenotaph.
This stupid brat is the son of a millionaire, he is also a history student who apparently later stated ' I had no idea what the Cenotaph stood for'

This brat 70 years ago would have been fighting for this flag .
He will hopefully remember with respect from now on, the people, many his age, who thought this countrys freedom was worth fighting for and lost their lives defending that belief .
It is not worshiping at the feet of men who fight in wars it is giving respect where respect is due.

Perhaps, Newbs, you would not try to distort things I said, and say things that make it appear I said something I didn't say.

I was referring specifically to things Rita persistently says about how men fought wars to give us freedom of speech, etc.

Many people have done many things, sometimes at considerable risk to themselves, to give us freedom of speech, etc.

What any war may or may not have been fought for, and why anyone may have fought in a war, has pretty much nothing to do with anything here -- except that the students in question are exercising the freedom of speech that men allegedly fought in wars for.

As I said, I completely fail to see how it makes any sense to carry on about men fighting for freedom of speech, and then condemn people for exercising it. Or say they should expect to get beaten up by police if they do.

That's what *I* was saying.

I have read all the recent posts concerning the Student Riots. I think what makes me sad and confused, is the fact that so many good people in this world are under house arrest, imprisoned in Gulags, and generally supressed for expressing political beliefs that we, in the West, this country in particular, take completely for granted as 'Our Right' Where are the 'marchers' protesting about the imprisonment of Liu Xiaobo? or Aung San Suu Kyi, or the Chinese supression of Tibet, or the horrors of living in North Korea, where to sigh in the wrong place will land you in Gaol? does no-one remember Tiannonmon Square? behaviour such as we have witnessed on Thursday would have meant you would have disappeared for years, maybe ever" presumably no-one cares a fig in our over protected over indulged young people for any of these issues?! self interest would seem to 'rule OK! Easy to riot in a democracy, where retribution from the authorities isn't exactly going to blight your life!!!!! As for criticising the 'Royals' and 'Toffs' Oh for goodness sake get that chip off your shoulder, talk about tired old cliches! who on earth can help where they are born and the circumstances they are born ito?! For heavens sake all that upsidedown snobbery went out with the ark. Of course, here in England (not in Burma or China etc of course) we DO have a right to peaceful protest ( aren't we lucky?)but we do NOT have the right to violate that privilege and make other peoples lives a misery, whoever they are.

This is our country , we live here, pay taxes and have the right to express our thoughts and feelings about our own country. It is not for others who do not live here to lay down the law and tell us all how wrong we are.

Chris, I have to politely disagree on that ...we pay our taxes and have a right to speak about and vote for what we want...which I am sure will be remembered in 5 years time lol...

but I don't think NOT living or paying taxes in a place should preclude anyone from giving an opion on its laws or its government etc ...that way lies real isolationism and no progress in human rights in other countries which do not have our democratic rights ( see MadamCholet's post).

This speaking about or criticising other people's countries, other people's opinions on matters which do not directly affect us, has led to much of the great progress in the world ( the abolition of slavery being one example, free elections in countries formerly dictatorships etc).

We ( as a country) can't deny anyone living elsewhere the right to an opinion on how we manage ourselves, or how any of us think .... if we do that, how can we possibly comment on them and their countries flaws and mismanagement !

My opinions on something going on in another country may be disagreed with by people who live there ...but I still want to be able to say my say, even if I don't live there, if I have looked and listened to what is going on :))

Madamecholet is of course right to highlight all those stuggling for justice in this world today.

However she apparently misunderstood my comments about those who may have been born into affluence.I'm not envious for one moment of their money.

All I'm fighting for is for the kids who live on the council estate where I live to have the same opportunities and life chances as those who may have gone to Eton and Harrow.

If this is considered to be an extreme position to take then I plead guilty as charged!

Regards
William Russell Jones.

Well Rita,are you quite honestly trying to tell me that Cameron and Osborne and Clegg had no advantages over the kids that grew up on my estate?

Regards
William Russell Jones.

I have no issue with anyone fighting for other peoples opportunities, what I do dislike is labeling people WHOEVER they are with names, like toff, and vaguely sneering at them for no other reason than accident of birth or the education that their parents decide for them over which the said person has no choice. It's exactly the same as saying that someone doesn't LIKE someone else, when in fact they have never met this person! you may not like someones attitude as you see it, or agree with their politics, but no one can say that they dislike somebody on a personal level, when they don't even know them. Rita, I so agree with your comments, and I'm sure, like me, you will have more time for demonstrators when you see them outside the afore said Embassy's demonstrating for seriously oppressed people as well as their own grievances. Never seem to see that any more, years ago young people WOULD have demonstated outside the appropriate Embassy's for the release of ALL political prisoners particularly a Nobel Peace prize winner being Gaoled for receiving this award (!), his wife under house arrest and his supporters being persecuted by an an autocratic state; that would certainly have caused massive protests; probably a riot, but not today?! Why? I suppose, to my amazement, young people simply don't care! Too concerned about number 1 I guess!! As far as I'm concerned, the people who need our help and are deserving of our admiration are the young men and women who daily put their lives on the line, and as for that BRAVE uncomplaining young soldier, who received his medal last week, minus his legs and most of his face (his own mother wouldn't have recognised him) he, and his companions are more than welcome to my Tax money. Self centered rioters and wreckers? they just make me sick!