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That is the correct Hetty Terry died 1966 wife of Ralph.
left money to Ralph and daughter Joan Waxman nee Terry

Maryb.

(Oops!, sorry folks, now see they have already been covered)

Chris :)

Mary

Please can you say where you found this record:

Annie landesman 1902 St George 1c 344

I've looked in "all the usual places" (including FreeBMD) without success.

Otherwise, I think I've traced everything you've all found and fitted it all together. Thank you all again!!

I think it's now a question of waiting for the certificates I have ordered to confirm some of the links. I'll report back when the certificates arrive.

Meanwhile I'll see if I can figure out how to trace relationships in Poland / Russia! Samuel and Abraham Toitz must have a common ancestor somewhere, but jewishgen is not easy to use ...

Keith

It's on FreeBMD - but yet another spelling!

Births Dec 1902 (>99%)
LANDASMAN Annie St.Geo.East 1c 344

Also Jacob's and Harry's records are different spelling from what Mary posted:

Births Jun 1901 (>99%)
LENDESMEN Jacob Davis St. Geo. East 1c 326

Births Mar 1899 (>99%)
Landesman Harry St. Geo. East 1c 373

Thank you ArgyllGran, that's found it. I was aware of the Lendesmen spelling, but this is the first (and only?) Landasman.

No, not quite, there's a John Landasman departing Liverpool for NY in 1921. Travelling by himself apparently so difficult to know if he has any connection to "our" Landsman.

Looks as if John & Harry were twins but I can't find a birth for John. I imagine he had a more "central european" name, like Jacob Davis -> David. Even so I would have expected him to be registered with the same surname spelling as David.

Thanks again, ArgyllGran

I don't see the travel record you mention, Keith.

There's this one, but the person is actually a woman named named Julia Landasman (not Landsman as on transcription) , and born 1903, not 1899:

John Landsman
in the UK, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960
Name: John Landsman
Gender: Female
Age: 18
Birth Date: abt 1903
Departure Date: 9 Feb 1921
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Destination Port: New York, USA
Ship Name: Celtic
Shipping line: White Star Line
Official Number: 113476
Master: R O Jones

EDIT:
Ignore this post - not new info!

--------------------------------


Well, perhaps this is the one you found, but in 1901 census - and it turns out he's a son of the Israel and Golda already mentioned by Mary on page 3 of this thread, and brother of David, Annie, and Ettie.

Here's a fuller version of the census posted by Mary:

Israel Landesman
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Israel Landesman
Age in 1911: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1874
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Germany
Civil Parish: St George in the East
Search Photos: Search for 'St George in the East' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 55 Jane St
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: CAP MAKER WORKER
Registration district: St George in the East
Registration District Number: 19
Sub-registration district: St George and St John
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Piece: 1500
Household Members:
Name Age
Israel Landesman 37
Golda Landesman 36
Harry Landesman 12
David Landesman 10
Annie Landesman 8
Ettie Landesman 6


And here they are in 1901 (I don't think this has been posted already - if so, apologies to whoever posted it):

John Landesman
in the 1901 England Census
Name: John Landesman
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1899
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Father: Israel Landesman
Mother: Golda Landesman
Birth Place: St George in the East
Civil Parish: St George in the East
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch St George in the East
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 55 Jane Street
Registration district: St George in the East
Sub-registration district: St George North
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 312
Folio: 15
Page Number: 21
Household schedule number: 135
Household Members:
Name Age
Israel Landesman 28
Golda Landesman 23
Harry Landesman 2
John Landesman 2
Harris Klein 22 - boarder


EDIT:
Oh yes, I see you've already seen this, although it wasn't posted to the thread.

Have looked at the image for 1901, and John was 2 months old, not 2 years.

Could he be David under another name?
David was Jacob Davis, so maybe John = Jacob?

Possible snag -
Jacob's birth was registered June qr of 1901, and the census was taken 31 March.
Perhaps the census should say 2 weeks, not 2 months, and having looked again, it could perhaps be "Wks" rather than "Mo"..

My conclusion - Jacob Davis = John = David.

After all the name changes, ArgyllGran, I think we're all mixed up!!

The travel record was indeed John, female, for some unaccountable reason I thought the "female" bit was wrong ...

The John I have included in the tree is indeed the one from the census record, but I hadn't spotted the "Mo" after the 2, and neither had the transcribers!!, thank you very much for that.

So that makes Jacob -> John possible, otherwise David (Jacob Davis) has a twin! Also explains why John has disappeared from the 1911 census and absence of a birth record. Or putting that another way, John only seems to appear in that C1901

Without hard evidence is hard to be 100% sure but it looks like a very good working assumption. Thank you!

Keith

Also, looked at the other way, if John and David are not the same person - where is David in 1901?

They must be one and the same.

I still read the scan of the original as 2 Mo, but maybe to be certain you need to see the real original.

In fact, it makes no real difference, does it? 2 weeks or 2 months, either takes him out of the 2Q, but the date registered could easily be weeks or even months later couldn't it?

So I remain convinced by your argument and agree your conclusion.

Keith

Or John is the one who died
1911 says 5 born 1 died leaving Harry, Annie, Jacob, Ettie.

Maryb.

Possible for the one who died ?:

Births Mar 1898 (>99%)
Londesman Hinda St George in the East 1c 382

Deaths Mar 1898 (>99%)
Londesman Hinda 0 St. Geo. East 1c 277

Hi Keith,

I think Dora is the Widow of Abraham, so Rudolf their son becomes Ralph?


Kind regards
Amanda

If it was Hinda then she wouldn't be on 1901 and On 1911 they have four children with them and no John as on 1901so when it states five born and one died then doesn't this mean the one that died was John.

Maryb

Yes, that seems to be correct, Amanda. The family seems to have specialised in name obfuscation!! If we've got this right, Rudolf becomes Ralph, Jacob Davis becomes either John or David, Toitz becomes Terry or Toye, and Landesman becomes almost anything as long as it begins with L!!!!

Dora started out, I think, as Daby, and a couple of other variants. I suspect that translation / transliteration from Cyrillic may have played a role here as the family is middle european Jewish, but there is plenty of evidence of explicit name changes in the UK. My aunt Doreen for example, changed her name from Toitz to Toye in 1939.

Keith

I don't follow your reasoning, Mary.

It seems to me that if Hinda was born and died in 1898 then she (I assume Hinda is a female name?) would not be on the C1901, and would count towards the 5 born stated in C1911.

It seems to me that C1911 leaves open whether it was John who died or some other child, possibly Hinda.

However, it seems possible / probable that David (Jacob Davis) should have appeared on the C1901. I probably need his birth certificate to be sure of his birth date (as opposed to the registration date.

However it is also possible that David arrived after the C1901 and that John died. However we have yet to find a death record for John.

Keith

If David is indeed Jacob, then he was born in first half of 1901.
John was also born in first half of 1901.

So either
(a) they were twins, but David was elsewhere on the night of the census - where, if aged 2 months or 2 weeks?? -
and then John died before 1911. But we can't find either a death record or a birth record for John.
or
(b) twins, but David somewhere else in 1901, and John somewhere else in 1911, and Hinda the deceased child. But still no birth record for John.
or
(c) Hinda was the deceased child, and John and David are one and the same.

Keith, you say,". . .David arrived after the C1901 and that John died."
That doesn't make sense, as they were both born 1901.
If they were two people, they must have been twins. But - no record of Johns birth.

I stick to my theory - (c) above!
Perhaps you need Hinda's birth cert as well.

Because it says 5 born I died on 1911 and including the four on 1911 and John on 1901 and not on 1911 then it seems obvious to me that the child that died was John who maybe had a Jewish first name . Just annoying that I can't find record for him

Ok had another look and I now think John is 2months and that would fit with the birth of Jacob 1901 A/M/J I apologise for confusing the matter.

Maryb.

"Keith, you say,". . .David arrived after the C1901 and that John died."
That doesn't make sense, as they were both born 1901."

It is just possible, ArgyllGran, two children, not twins in one year, at least I think it is, but that doesn't mean that I believe it!

I still support your theory as the best explanation we yet have.

Keith