Find Ancestors

I'm looking for the parents of Hetty Landsman, born about 1905 I believe. She married in 1931:

First name(s) HETTY
Last name LANDSMAN
Marriage quarter 2
Marriage year 1931
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ HETTY LANDSMAN married
RUDOLPH TOITZ
Spouse's last name TOITZ
District LONDON CITY
District number -
County London
Country England
Volume 1C
Page 85
Record set England & Wales marriages 1837-2008
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

I've found a freeBMD entry for Yetty Landsman:

Name: Yetty Landsman
Registration Year: 1905
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 168

which *might* be her. Other people changed their name from Yetty to Hetty. I haven't yet ordered her (possible) birth and marriage certificates which would be the logical next step.

I think her parents were David and Tillie Landsman, and it's just possible that Tillie's maiden name was Finkelstein but this is a long shot. I'd welcome any evidence either way, please.

I'm told there is a record on Ancestry which shows David and Tilly Landsman travelled to the USA in 1910, might anyone be able to confirm that please?

I suspect that David & Tilly were Eastern European Jews - they might therefore have arrived in the UK in the late 1800s. I have failed to find any evidence of this.

Keith

There were quite a few David Landsmans arriving in USA +/- a few years, none that I can see with a Tilly. The only one who arrived in 1910 exactly was 18 years old and departed Bremen.

Just a long shot - I can't see that Yetty born 1905 - nor Tilly in any censuses - but there's this ??

Ettie Landsman
in the 1911 England Census

Name: Ettie Landsman
Age in 1911: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1910
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish: Bethnal Green
Search Photos: Search for 'Bethnal Green' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 118 Columbia Rd, Bethnal Green E
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Registration District Number: 17
Sub-registration district: Bethnal Green North East
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Piece: 1384
Household Members:
Name Age
David Landsman 33 - Hebrew, born Mitwa, Kurland (Latvia) - tailor
Fanny Landsman 28 - Hebrew - born Mitwa
Ettie Landsman 1 - Hebrew
Sarah Landsman 68 - Hebrew, widow, born Mitwa



Births Mar 1910 (>99%)
LANDSMAN Ettie St Geo East 1c 290

found this marriage

Marriages Jun 1917 (>99%)
Altman Hettie david Landsman Marylebone 1a 1321

Thank you MarieCeleste. 18 yo in 1910 would rule him out, I'm afraid.

That census record is in the right sort of area, ArgyllGran, and the right sort of age. I've seen records which place "my" Hetty as born 1905 or 1910 (of course there may be two Hettys!). So not a long shot at all, a valid possibility, thatnks!

1911 census says David & Fanny had been married 3 years, but I don't see a marriage record, so maybe they married before arriving in UK.

Yes, malyon, I'd seen that too, but that's long after the birth of Hetty Landsman, not that that's impossible, but I suspect unlikely.

As MarieCeleste noted, there seems to be a plentiful supply of David Landsmen.

The Latvia connection is interesting. I was expecting Russian / Polish, but not for any good reason.

Odd, that census record doesn't show up for me when I search for David Landsman, but Ettie Landsman finds it. Thanks again, ArgyllGran.

Maybe relevant ??? - re Tilly & David:

Tilly Landsman
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965

Name: Tilly Landsman
Year: 1932
County or Borough: Hackney
Ward or Division/Constituency: Hackney
Street address: 215 Evering Road

David Landsman at same address.


At various addresses in Hackney 1932-39 (Start of war - coincidence ???)

Yes, ArgyllGran, and there's another clue too. If you look at the electoral register for 1934 you see Hettie & Ralph Toitz (see marriage in first post) at the same business address as Tillie & David Landsman (Well Street, EC1, I believe they were furriers). Now it's quite possible that Tillie Landsman is the daughter of David (ie sister of Hettie), it just seems (seemed?) a reasonable initial assumption that David & Tillie are husband & wife.

I've also found a marriage for Ettie Landsman, using Ettie as first name:

Name: Ettie Landsman
Spouse Surname: Knight
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1935
Registration district: Stepney
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 1c
Page Number: 581

This might be the same Ettie Landsman that you found, and if it is it would argue against David & Fanny as being the parents of Hettie Landsman.

I'd say that, for starters, you should buy the marriage certificate!

Jude

Here's "a" David marrying "a" Tille

Name: David Landsman
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 18 Aug 1934
Marriage Place: Kings, New York, USA
Spouse: Tillie Finkelstein
Certificate Number: 13291
Purchase Certificate

and there's this death

Name: Tillie Landsman
Birth Date: 26 Oct 1909
Date of Registration: Dec 1993
Age at Death: 84
Registration district: Westminster
Inferred County: London
Register Number: C38C
District and Subdistrict: 2581C
Entry Number: 161

No idea how or if either of these fit in.....your Tillie and David are together in the electoral rolls from 1932...

There are a couple of private trees on Ancestry with photos named RANT 2014 and 2015 - do you have access?

Jude

I think Tillie is definitely his wife because she has electoral roll qualification Dw which signifies through occupation of husband

Jude

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11719707

(Naturalisation Certificate for one, 1931)

Chris :)

http://www.jewishgen.org/

(above could be useful perhaps, Finkelstein, or similar!)

Hey Jude!

I'd sort of come to the same conclusion about buying the marriage certificate.

I'm in touch with the owner of the RANT tree, the above query is an attempt to confirm or refute some of the content.

But your find of the marriage in NY and the death are intriguing. It *suggests* to me that the David & Tilly of the electoral roll are of the same generation as Hetty & Ralph, and *perhaps* there is another David Landsman who was Hetty's father. That seems to fit, at least as a working hypothesis.

Unfortunately Hetty's marriage certificate won't clarify that as at best it will show David as father without saying which David!

That's really useful, Jude, thank you.

Keith

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=landsman&yearOfDeath=1994&page=2#calendar

(above for that 1993 Death)

(addresses from Certs. always useful, handy for newspaper look up's, googling, electoral etc!)

Chris :)

edits

(address from Probate, on google?, Husband Death 1955. Marriage 1932 Stepney)

What I don't like is that David appears in the electoral registers (living at 215 Evering Road Hackney) and working in the City (with Ralph who that year was also in Evering Road) in 1932 and Tillie is already with him as his wife.....so that 1934 marriage is too late :-( :-( :-(

Jude

Hi Chris & Chris & Jude, and thank you!

"1932 and Tillie is already with him as his wife.....so that 1934 marriage is too late"

Maybe. I've seen one Jewish family which married in a church and in a synagogue, I'm told this was not unusual around this time. Maybe the NY marriage is a duplicate in this sense?

How can I find more about that "Marriage 1932 Stepney", Chris? It doesn't show up for me in searches ...

I agree about buying certificates, but it starts to get expensive ...

I've asked for a quote for the naturalisation certificate, that should help a lot!

Keith

This is the 1932 marriage

Marriages Mar 1932 (>99%)
Lendesman Jacob D Stone Stepney 1c 482
Stein Tillie Lendesmen Stepney 1c 482
Stone Tillie Lendesmen Stepney 1c 482

Jude

and this the 1955 death and probate

Deaths Mar 1955 (>99%)
Landsman Jacob D 53 Islington 5c 1187

Jacob Davis Lendesmen
[Jacob Davis Landsman]
Probate Date: 23 Jul 1955
Registry: London, England
Death Date: 13 Jan 1955
Death Place: London, England

Maybe not the same couple...

Jude