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Some certificates arrived while I was away for a couple of weeks.

55 Jane Street ties them nicely together.

Jacob Davis Landesman 30, father Gabriel, married Tillie Stone 22, of 7 Nelson Street, Mile End, father Abraham deceased, on 5 January 1932.

Yetta Lundisman, daughter of Golda Lundisman, formerly Gimick, and Israel Lundesman, born 3 October 1904

Jacob Davis Lendesmen, parents ditto but Lendesmen, born 8 March 1901

19 November 1931, David Landsman naturalisation. But. Address in Tottenham Court Road, married to Hettie, born 1893, parents Leib & Yetta Landsman. So this is unlikely to be connected. Pity!

Keith

Jude:

Anything as long as it begins with "L" [grin]

That's him alright, 55 Jane Street. I wonder how he got to Australia? And what he was called when he went!

Mary:

Thanks for the pointer to Israel / Gabriel, I see it now.

Keith

Totally unconnected, this is Jacob Davis/David - he was a furrier

Name: Mr J D Lindesmann
Birth Date: abt 1901
Age: 28
Port of Departure: Australia
Arrival Date: 4 Jul 1929
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Plymouth
Ship Name: Orsova
Search Ship Database: Search for the Orsova in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping line: Orient Steam Navigation Company Ltd
Official Number: 128278

Jude

I wonder if Mary means on the electoral rolls?

Maybe Israel and Golda were not elegible to vote?

Jude

"Where were they when the children were at 55,Jane Street the family home?? "

Not sure what you mean, Maryb.

Israel and Golda were with the children at 55 Jane Street in 1901 & 1911 - census records posted on page 4. (And also mentioned by you on page 3)

There is a Gabriel and Israel registered on Ancestry.co.uk with the same with the same Volume and page number ie Stepney 1947 5b 544.

Maryb

Where has the "Gabriel" come from, Mary? I've only seen him as Israel.

Thanks for Golda's death, I hadn't seen that.

Keith

Death of Israel/Gabriel landesman 1873 -1947 Stepney 5b 544
Goldy landsman 1875 -1951 Islington 5c 954.

Where were they when the children were at 55,Jane Street the family home??

Maryb.

Jude: that is indeed the marriage.

I think that Looie must be another branch of the family.

ArgyllGran: nope, we haven't had a Lundisman yet [grin] And I agree she's a valid candidate.

How do you find them? Just when I thought we'd about bpttomed it, up pops another L something of the other!!

Looks as if I need to order a handful of certificates, this is going to be an expensive week!

Thanks both!

Keith

Re Ettie/Hettie/Yetta/Yetty -

an alternative to the 1905 Bethnal Green birth in your opening post, Keith, could be this one (not sure if already suggested?):

Births Dec 1904 (>99%)
LUNDISMAN Yetta St. Geo. East 1c 309

The surname spelling is more like that in the 1901 & 1911 censuses, the birthplace is the same as the other children, and a child born at the end of 1904 would be 6 at the time of the 1911 census.

Not sure if this has been posted but this probably is the marriage of Israel and Golda

Marriages Jun 1897 (>99%)
Gimick Golda Mile End 1c 882 Scan available - click to view
Koppel Annie Mile End 1c 882 Scan available - click to view
Landesman Israel Mile End 1c 882 Scan available - click to view
Tabilitsky David Mile End 1c 882 Scan available - click to view

Jude

OK here's my twopence worth!

John and David are one and the same - there is no birth for John and it seems inconceivable that "2 month old" David is elsewhere in 1901. David was born Jacob Davis, married as Jacob Davis and died as Jacob Davis but was know as David. Don't forget....the registration is when the birth was registered. Nowadays you have 42 days to register. So a child could be born - say March 15th - and registration would have to be done by by 26 April. And in freebmd that would show as June :-)

Hinda is the child born and died in 1911 census.

So in various electoral rolls the four surviving siblings live together.

If I were you I would plump for this birth certificate

Births Mar 1906 (>99%)
Landsman Louie St. Geo. East 1c 322

I'd wager this is Hetty

EDIT: Scotch that

Name: Looie Landsman
Age in 1911: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1905
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish: St Giles in the Fields and Bloomsbury St George
Search Photos: Search for 'St Giles in the Fields and Bloomsbury St George' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 23 High Street, Bloomsbury W C
Occupation: SCHOOL
Registration district: St Giles
Registration District Number: 12
Sub-registration district: St Giles and Bloomsbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Piece: 1177

So Yetty seems the only possibility...
Jude

"Keith, you say,". . .David arrived after the C1901 and that John died."
That doesn't make sense, as they were both born 1901."

It is just possible, ArgyllGran, two children, not twins in one year, at least I think it is, but that doesn't mean that I believe it!

I still support your theory as the best explanation we yet have.

Keith

Because it says 5 born I died on 1911 and including the four on 1911 and John on 1901 and not on 1911 then it seems obvious to me that the child that died was John who maybe had a Jewish first name . Just annoying that I can't find record for him

Ok had another look and I now think John is 2months and that would fit with the birth of Jacob 1901 A/M/J I apologise for confusing the matter.

Maryb.

If David is indeed Jacob, then he was born in first half of 1901.
John was also born in first half of 1901.

So either
(a) they were twins, but David was elsewhere on the night of the census - where, if aged 2 months or 2 weeks?? -
and then John died before 1911. But we can't find either a death record or a birth record for John.
or
(b) twins, but David somewhere else in 1901, and John somewhere else in 1911, and Hinda the deceased child. But still no birth record for John.
or
(c) Hinda was the deceased child, and John and David are one and the same.

Keith, you say,". . .David arrived after the C1901 and that John died."
That doesn't make sense, as they were both born 1901.
If they were two people, they must have been twins. But - no record of Johns birth.

I stick to my theory - (c) above!
Perhaps you need Hinda's birth cert as well.

I don't follow your reasoning, Mary.

It seems to me that if Hinda was born and died in 1898 then she (I assume Hinda is a female name?) would not be on the C1901, and would count towards the 5 born stated in C1911.

It seems to me that C1911 leaves open whether it was John who died or some other child, possibly Hinda.

However, it seems possible / probable that David (Jacob Davis) should have appeared on the C1901. I probably need his birth certificate to be sure of his birth date (as opposed to the registration date.

However it is also possible that David arrived after the C1901 and that John died. However we have yet to find a death record for John.

Keith

Yes, that seems to be correct, Amanda. The family seems to have specialised in name obfuscation!! If we've got this right, Rudolf becomes Ralph, Jacob Davis becomes either John or David, Toitz becomes Terry or Toye, and Landesman becomes almost anything as long as it begins with L!!!!

Dora started out, I think, as Daby, and a couple of other variants. I suspect that translation / transliteration from Cyrillic may have played a role here as the family is middle european Jewish, but there is plenty of evidence of explicit name changes in the UK. My aunt Doreen for example, changed her name from Toitz to Toye in 1939.

Keith

If it was Hinda then she wouldn't be on 1901 and On 1911 they have four children with them and no John as on 1901so when it states five born and one died then doesn't this mean the one that died was John.

Maryb

Hi Keith,

I think Dora is the Widow of Abraham, so Rudolf their son becomes Ralph?


Kind regards
Amanda

Possible for the one who died ?:

Births Mar 1898 (>99%)
Londesman Hinda St George in the East 1c 382

Deaths Mar 1898 (>99%)
Londesman Hinda 0 St. Geo. East 1c 277