Find Ancestors

I'm not sure it will help, but I found this:

Nationality and Naturalisation
HO 144/8706
1928
Nationality and Naturalisation: Landsman, Lewis, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate 16351 issued 17 August 1928.
Nationality and Naturalisation
HO 144/14169
1931
Nationality and Naturalisation: Landsman, Morris, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate A19689 issued 22 April 1931.
Nationality and Naturalisation
HO 144/15260
1931
Nationality and Naturalisation: Landsman, David, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate AZ608 issued 19 November 1931.

I will order the naturalisation certificate to see what it tells us.

(just to add, Samuel and Annie Toitz, 1911, 46, New Road, Stepney, look to be listed on below)

http://www.dworkin-consulting.co.uk/FEDEDM/INDEX.HTM

(and a David and Fanny Platter , Death ages could match that 1911 posted page 1, lol)

Chris :)

http://www.jewishgen.org/

(still think above will be able to help, awaits that ordered Cert. now!)


edits

(that David Platter below)

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=platter&yearOfDeath=1950&page=1#calendar

What a brilliant find, Chris, thank you! I hadn't any information on Samuel and Anna's deaths.

Puzzling, perhaps, that Abraham & Daby Toitz aren't listed.

Are you thinking that the Landsmans changed their names to Platter?

Thanks again Chris!

Keith

Well, not sure on anything Keith, lol.

Hope Cert. doesn't take too long...

Chris :)

1930 Finsbury Islington
Davis landsman no 152 abode 55,Jane street E1
Also there Ralph Toitz abode 59,Amhurst Park.

1930 Electoral Roll
55,Jane Street Stepney.
Annie Londesman
DAVIS JACOB Londesman
HETTIE Londesman.

1931 55,Jane Street
Davis Jacob londesman
Hettie
Rachel Wiseboard.
No Annie.

Maryb.

Yet another spelling variant, thank you very much, Mary, that helps a lot! I wonder how many other ways you can spell Landsman? ;-))

One possible interpretation might be that Hettie and Davis are a couple, and Annie is / was his mother. Does that make sense? Are there any other / better interpretations?

Infuriating that they then proceed to disappear!

Thanks again, Mary!

Keith

Marriage
Tillie Stein (Stone) married Jacob D Lendesman J/f/M 1932 Stepney 1c 482.

So that death for Tillie in 1993 born 1909 looks like the one!!.

I think Davis and Annie could be David and Fanny in 1911 and Annie died 1930/1 and dad David /Davis remarried to Tillie.

edit no looks wrong as Jacob Davis of same address 116 Leeside Cresent died 1955 born 1901.
Back to drawing board.

Maryb.

Yes, I'd seen the Stein Lendesman marriage (and speculated on the progression: Finkelstein -> Stein -> Stone).

And I agree that Tillie 1909 - 1993 looks likely.

I hadn't twigged the possibility Annie Fanny, that's nice! And the remarriage idea could fit.

But, if Annie / Fanny died, where's the record of it? Ditto the second marriage? Those questions would make more sense if they would stick to the same name for longer than five minutes!

Keith

As we're flinging random names around, I'll just add that there are people named David and Hetty Landsman living in Middlesex in 1940's and 50's , with a third person named Reginald David Landsman.

Probably nothing to do with your query!

David Landsman (and Hetty and Reginald)

in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: David Landsman
Year: 1945
County or Borough: Hendon
Ward or Division/Constituency: Wembley North East
Street address: 7033 Kastan (Actually 21 Woodlands Avenue, Uxbridge)
Reference Number: MR/PER/C/0706


David Landsman (and Hetty, Irene M, and Reginald)
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: David Landsman
Year: 1949
County or Borough: Ruislip and Northwood
Ward or Division/Constituency: Ruislip Northwood South East
Street address: 21 Bihz (21 Woodlands Avenue, now apparently in Ruislip)
Reference Number: MR/PER/C/0783

Reginald and Irene have "S" before their names, which indicates Service Voter.

And annually until 1958 ( haven't looked at the image for every year):

David Landsman (and Hetty)

in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: David Landsman
Year: 1958
County or Borough: Ruislip and Northwood
Ward or Division/Constituency: Ruislip Northwood South East
Street address: INeai (21 Woodlands Avenue)
Reference Number: MR/PER/C/1005


His death and probate:

David Landsman
in the England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966
Name: David Landsman
Probate Date: 30 May 1958
Registry: London, England
Death Date: 30 Mar 1958
Death Place: Middlesex, England

Landsman, David, of 21 Woodlands Avenue, Eastcote, Ruislip, Middlesex died 30 March 1958 at Mount Vernon Hospital, Middlesex. Administration London 30 May to Hetty Landsman, widow. Effects £131 3s 5d.

No, forget that!

Reginald is the son of Hetty Altman, whose 1917 marriage to a David Landsman was posted on page 1 by Malyon - and we discounted that one - I think?

Births Mar 1921 (>99%)
Landsman Reginald Altman St.Martin 1a 780

More grist to the mill, ArgyllGran! I'd seen the Ruislip nest but saw no way of linking it (or not) with the East Enders.

It's not made any easier when Landsman can be Londsman or Lendesmen (or for all I know 16 other variants!!)

How likely is it that we could find three (I think that's the current count) of couples: David (or some variant) Landsman (or some variant) married to a Hetty?

Are there any ways - apart from ordering upteen certificates - of ruling some of these people in or out? I'd like to order certificates for probables rather than possibles!

Keith

I'm loth to discount anything, ArgyllGran!

I think it's unlikely that Hetty Altman could be the mother of Hetty Landsman, the dates don't look right. But that's not the same as saying that Hetty Altman didn't marry "this" David Landsman.

We simply haven't found sufficient conventional (BMD) records to be able to be certain of anything much at this point. Again, not helped by the constant name changing!

The certificates may help, I certainly hope so, but it's frustrating to have to wait for the two weeks they take to arrive!!

Keith

Right here goes.

Harry Lendesman born st George 1899 1c 373
Jacob Davis lendesman 1901 St George 1c 326
Annie landesman 1902 St George 1c 344

1911 55,Jane Street (as on 1930/31 electoral records)
Israel Landesman born Germany 1874 cap maker
Golda 1875 Russia(nee Gimick ) married Mile end 1897 1c 882
Harry 1899
David (Jacob Davis) 1901
Ettie 1905 born St George.

Above people on 1901 at same address.

So Hetty/Ettie (1905 and Ralph with her brother and sister??
then brother Jacob Davis married Tillie 1932.


Israel/Gabriel 1873 died 1947 Stepney 5b 544
Maryb.

Looks as if Landesman is the favoured spelling, thank you for finding it Mary.

I can see the family in 1901 and 1911.

I hadn't thought of a brother / sister combination, just goes to show how one can make obvious put potentially wrong assumptions!! But, I don't yet see a sister for Ettie / Hettie?

edit: duh, sorry, Annie is the sister.

It feels as if that has moved us a major step forward, Mary, thank you again. It seems to support my hypothesis of David & Tillie being the same generation as Hettie, not her parents.

Now the question is Tillie who? Options so far: Finkelstein, Stein, Stone.

Keith

A possibility:

????

Tilly Stein
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Tilly Stein
Year: 1929
County or Borough: Tower Hamlets
Ward or Division/Constituency: Bethnal Green
Street address: 169 Globe Road

At same address:

Iris Rose Ivy Stein and Winifred Violet Stein.

Births Dec 1900 (>99%)
Stein Winifred Violet Mile End 1c 462

Births Mar 1899 (>99%)
Stein Iris Rose I Mile End 1c 534

Can't see a birth for Tilly.
On censuses she's Lily/Lilly (assuming I've found the right census record) - BUT can't see a birth of a Lily either.

Lily Stem
in the 1901 England Census
Record Image View
Name: Lily Stem
[Lily Stein]
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1894
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Father: John Stem
Mother: Lily Stem
Birth Place: Bethnal Green, London, England
Civil Parish: Mile End Old Town
Ecclesiastical parish: St Dunstan Stepney
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address:
Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub-registration district: Mile End, Old Town, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 334
Folio: 35
Page Number: 62
Household schedule number: 418
Household Members:
Name Age
John Stem 33
Lily Stem 31
Lily Stem 7
Iris Stem 2
Winifred Stem 7/12


Lilly Stean (Stean is correct on image - they've changed their name slightly)
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Lilly Stean
Age in 1911: 7 (mistranscribed - 17 on image)
Estimated birth year: abt 1904 (should be 1894)
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish: Bethnal Green
Search Photos: Search for 'Bethnal Green' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 147 Cambridge Rd, Bethnal Green, London
Marital Status: Single
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Registration District Number: 17
Sub-registration district: Bethnal Green South West
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Piece: 1432
Household Members:
Name Age
John George Stean 43
Lilly Stean 41 - 7 children, 3 living, 4 died.
Lilly Stean 7
Iris Stean 10
Winnifred Stean 8
Doris Lahn 5 - niece (surname actually Zahn)


Deaths Sep 1932 (>99%)
Stean Winifred V 32 Bethnal G 1c 102

Marriages Mar 1929 (>99%)
STEAN Iris R I Townsend Stepney 1c 284

Yet another name change! Thank you ArgyllGran.

I agree that Stein / Stone / Stean looks probable. I've been assuming:

Name: Tillie Stein
Spouse Surname: Lendesmen
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1932
Registration district: Stepney
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume Number: 1c
Page Number: 482

Name: Tillie Stone
Spouse Surname: Lendesmen
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1932
Registration district: Stepney
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume Number: 1c
Page Number: 482

Maybe at a tangent, I find it strange that two names (Stone, Stein) appear in the marriage index on separate pages, both pointing to the same record - 1c 482. I wonder how that can happen? I feel another certificate order coming on ...

Keith

They had a son 1933 Landsman mum nee Stein.
He married 1961 I think.

1911 Mile End 7,Nelson street Stepney 06 404 9kids 2 died
Albert Stein born Russia a tailor age 40
Sarah
Lilly actually looks like TILLY age 1 born St George

Tillie Stone O/N/D 1909 1c 282 so right birthdate.

Maryb

The surnames are on different pages of the GRO Index because the list is alphabetical, but it's the same record.
Tillie will have been known by both names at different times - probably born as Stein, but using (or maybe officially changed to) Stone.
Both names will be on the actual marriage cert.

Her age on the marriage cert will help to verify if she's Tilly / Lilly above or not.
Also her father's name.

Possibly Tilly / Lilly's birth record.
While trawling around on the search for your family, I've seen other Tilllies with Esther given as an alternative name - and vice versa.

Births Dec 1894 (>99%)
Stein Esther Mile End 1c 490

Hetty can also be a diminutive of Esther.

Deaths Sep 1953 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------
TOITZ Dora 79 Hackney 5c 509


Deaths Jun 1966 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
TERRY HETTY 61 HACKNEY 5B 557

(if somebody could cast an eye on Wills for above, are they relating?, that Hetty Birth 1905 on page 1)

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

(or Ancestry, 1955 for Dora)

Chris :)

(apologies, but must get moving here!)