Find Ancestors

I think this rules out the 1934 marriage...

Name: David Landsman
Age: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1907
Gender: Male
Race: White
Birthplace: Nebraska
Marital Status: Married
Relation to Head of House: Head
Home in 1940: New York, Kings, New York
Map of Home in 1940: View Map
Street: East 93rd Street
House Number: 87
Farm: No
Inferred Residence in 1935: New York, Kings, New York
Residence in 1935: Same Place
Resident on farm in 1935: No
Sheet Number: 12A
Institution: None
Number of Household in Order of Visitation: 233
Occupation: Credit Manager
House Owned or Rented: Rented
Value of Home or Monthly Rental if Rented: 33
Attended School or College: No
Highest Grade Completed: High School, 2nd year
Hours Worked Week Prior to Census: 50
Class of Worker: Wage or salary worker in private work
Weeks Worked in 1939: 52
Income: 2000
Income Other Sources: No
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
David Landsman 33
Tillie Landsman 33
Ira Landsman 3

So back where we started :-(

David/Tillie Hettie/Ralph

Jude

Ah, the dreaded alternative spelling, thank you again, Jude!

The probate record helpfully says "Lendesmen or Landsman"

Maybe I can find more using the Lendesmen spelling ...

But that US census record, I find it quite a coincidence that there should be two couples David & Tillie Landsman.

I was going to ask if there was any sign of David & Tilly crossing the Atlantic together ...

Keith

No sign of Tilly/ie travelling, though lots of David Landsmen as has already been said.

Well "your" David and Tilly were in Hackney in 1935

Name: Tillie Landsman
Year: 1935
County or Borough: City of London
Ward or Division/Constituency: City of London
Street address: 2/4 Moorfielda House

This is their "work"

Name: Tilly Landsman
Year: 1935
County or Borough: Hackney
Ward or Division/Constituency: Hackney
Street address: 20 LEASIDE ROAD-conM

This is their home (although it says Evering Road on the work image) - it's definitely the right pair...in 1939 this is their address when they are paired with Ralph and Hettie in the work roll

So yep - two separate David and Tillies methinks. And the New York one has to be the Tillie Finkelstein marriage

Jude

Thank you, ArgyllGran, for the confirmation that there are no atlantic crossings.

And thank you Jude for the electoral rolls, I'll track down the originals. Somehow it's always easier to find things that you know are thre!!

I've ordered the Ralph - Hetty marriage certificate.

I wondered if perhaps Finkelstein -> Stein -> Stone
and Lendesman -> Landsman
There were so many name changes.

Name: Jacob D Lendesmen
Spouse Surname: Stone
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1932
Registration district: Stepney
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume Number: 1c
Page Number: 482

Name: Tillie Stone
Spouse Surname: Lendesmen
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1932
Registration district: Stepney
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume Number: 1c
Page Number: 482

I'll report back when I have the certificates, thank you very much for all your support.

Keith

Yes the 1932 marriage is compelling - and his name allegedly "Davis"

Curiously I can find David and Tillie up to 1939 and then after the war, no sign. And Jacob and Tilly I can't find until 1946....

Jude

The probate record posted by Chris Ho on page 1 was for a Tillie Landsman of Leeside Crescent.
That was the 1993 death posted by Jude on page 1.

Does that relate at all to the Tillie at Leaside Road in 1935 ER ??

If so, she was born 26/10/1909 - so too young to be your Hettie's mother

And I was just about to say...

Yes the 1932 marriage is compelling - and his name allegedly "Davis"

Curiously I can find David and Tillie up to 1939 and then after the war, no sign. And Jacob and Tilly I can't find until 1946....

But Jacob D cannot be Hettie's father IF she was born in 1905 as HE was born 1902

And his wife Tillie was born in 1909

Jude

Could they have changed their name, perhaps, because of the war, if Landsman was recognisably a Jewish name?

But would that have mattered when they were in Britain?

Hettie and Ralph appear to disappear completely. I think there was a daughter born just after the marriage...

Do you think they changed their name (all three of them)?

Jude

Perhaps in an internment camp during the war, as not British subjects?

It seems strange that all four - David and Tillie and Ralph and Hettie (and their daughter) - disappear in 1939.

It has to be something to do with their nationality although Rudolph (Ralph) was born in London. David I think was not. Hettie - who knows?

The marriage certificate will give Hettie's age and you can hopefully work back from that. If it is 1905, then maybe the Yetty birth is worth a punt.

Jude

Ralph and Hetty/Hettie are on ER's until 1951 on Ancestry:

Ralph-J Toitz
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Ralph-J Toitz
Year: 1951
County or Borough: Hackney
Ward or Division/Constituency: Stoke Newington and Hackney North
Street address: 103 Singer. Sidney

(Actually 103 Osbaldeston Road)

EDIT: they're there in 1952, too, although only Hetty's name shows on a search on Ancestry)



There's also a Dora Toitz until 1954:

Dora Toitz

in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Dora Toitz
Year: 1954
County or Borough: Hackney
Ward or Division/Constituency: Stoke Newington and Hackney North
Street address: 33 Finsbury Park Road

Other people at that address (presumably a block of flats):

Lewis & Rebecca Tuckman
Jack & Nellie Goldberg
Jessie Collins
Elsie Bennett

EDIT:
Dora's probably not a relation - she's listed as a widow on her probate record in 1953

Ralph's in the phone book in 1956.

Ralph Toitz
in the British Phone Books, 1880-1984
Name: Ralph Toitz
Address: 103 Osbaldeston rd N.16.'. STAmfd
Exchange: HI
Directory Title: London Surnames S - Z
Publication Year: 1956
Directory County: London
Page Number: 3338

Can't see death records for either Hetty or Ralph, however.

Yes I saw the probate of Dora...don't know how she fits in. Violet Platter (in the probate) I think is her daughter

Jude

Dora probate to Ralph Terry a Furrier.

Ralph terry 16/6/1907-1980 London.
Hetty Terry 1905-1966.

Hetty Terry of 103,Osbaldston road London N16 died 19/4/1966 same address as above left £6142
Probate to Ralph Terry a Furrier and Joan Waxman married woman.
Joan Waxman (their daughter ? ) and Henry Waxman next door to Ralph and Hetty Terry in 1958


Joan terry married henry P Waxman in 1956 9d 676.
I think this is your Ralph and Hetty Toitz ?

1911
Dorah landsman1865
Barnett 1867-1950
Morris 1893
Mary 1898
Ady 1907.

1931 59,Amhurst park
Ralph Toizt
Barnet Platter is this Landsman
Violet Platter.

Was Barnett related to David landsman??


Maryb.

I went out for a couple of hours and you have all been very busy! Thank you!

My current hypothesis is that David & Tilly are of the same generation as Ralph and Hettie. It's possible that Hettie's parents were also David and Tilly.

I'm assuming the Tillie Landsman of the probate and death record is "my" Tilly, as my working hypothesis.

"Could they have changed their name"

I've found records of Landesmen AKA Landsman, so that's already a name change. There were a lot of Jews who changed their names (Toitz became Terry in one of the examples above).

Dora Toitz is a new name for me, I have no idea yet where she might fit in. Two Toitzs arrived in the UK, Abraham and Samuel, complete with families. Around the 1940s they all seem to have changed their name, most of them to Toye I think, but also at least one to Terry.

Joan Waxman (née Terry) was the daughter of Ralph and Hetty. Joan and Henry appear to have had a son Gregory 1960, it would be enlightening to be able to find him!

I need to find that probate for Dora.

It will be interesting to discover where they "disappeared" to during the war.

Thank you all for searching like this

Keith

Barnett Platter 1902 married Violet Toitz 1906, daughter of Abraham Toitz, brother of Ralph Terry / Toitz.

And / but just to make it interesting, there was also a Barnett Toitz 1892, son of Samuel Toitz. He married Betsy, surname unknown as yet.

Keith

Ancestry's info re ERs says:

"Registers were not published during the latter years of World War 1 (1916–1917) or World War 2 (1940–1944)."

So that explains some of their "disappearance".

But not what happened to Tilly & David after 1939 - unless they changed their name. They don't "re-appear" like Ralph and Hettie.