Genealogy Chat

Sam, if it were me, I would approach the Salvation Army. Joy

Are there absolutely no other relatives or old family friends who could be approached about this. Either ones who are in touch with her or could go round and visit. At the very least he could find out what her illness is. There are the best 'family detectives' that money can't buy on these threads, somebody could probably find her branch of the family for you. Mandy

Hi Sammy, What a sad, sad case this is, I feel so very sorry for your bil, this must be breaking his heart. I have had some dealings with SS this past year or so, and they can be difficult to pin down at the best of times, and in my opinion quite a law unto themselves sometimes! However, saying that, due to so much bad publicity in the past, they are usually pretty desperate to cover their backs. This could work in your bil's favour. My thoughts on this are that he must write to them now (enclosing a copy of his birth certificate to prove he is her son) and explain that although he has spent many years looking for his mother, and desperately wants to meet her, the last thing he wants is to put any undue pressure on her to do the same, especially as he's been told by this carer that she is ill. He respects the fact that they cannot divulge any information about her to him, however, he has GRAVE concerns about the letter he received from this carer; that as far as he is aware this person has no legal right to speak on her behalf; that for his mother's sake, he needs to know that she has received his letters personally and made the choice not to see him of her own free will (not pressured in some way by a third party); and that if she is either mentally or physically incapable of communicating with him directly, or indeed prefers not to, then he needs to have this in writing from someone in authority, someone who he feels he can trust to legally speak on her behalf. In order for this matter to be laid at rest once and for all, he is requesting that her power of attourney, if she has one, contacts him, with a copy of their papers stating their position as such, OR, if she doesn't have a power of attourney then he needs her social worker, or GP to contact him instead. Either way he needs someone to send him an official letter stating they have seen his mother, spoken to her and have her permission to write to him and say she doesn't wish to have any contact with him. Maybe, just maybe, voicing doubts about the letter (which he should enclose a copy of) and asking for an official letter expressing her wishes will put enough pressure on them to make sure this is what SHE wants, and not some iffy carer making all the decisions for her. If this is the case, then your bil will at least know where he stands and can begin to move on. I hope this isn't what she wants and things work out well for him. Best wishes, Carole.

Hi Sam I've been reading your thread with great interest. I just want to add that family members can be official carers. I have an aunty in Birmingham who has low mobility (severe arthritis) she can walk slowly with a frame and has a chair lift to upstairs... her daughter is her carer. BIL's mother may have gone on to have more children who may be still living at home like in my aunt's case... just a thought. Might be an idea to check the electoral role to see if anymore else lives there. Good luck. Gerry B

Morning all.. I have already checked the electoral roll, there is no one with her, nor has there been in the past 18yrs. It would be surprising to find more children since she is still married to BIL's father, 33yrs down the line and neither of them have filed for divorce. He was violent during their 3yrs of living together, it has been suggested that she did not divorce him because he then would have known her whereabouts, which she would not have wanted. BIL's mother was adopted, therfore we have not been able to trace her birth nor any siblings. Her maiden name (adopted) is Barnes, so although there have been 2 brothers mentioned, it is not known if they were birth siblings or adopted i.e. Barnes or whatever her birth name was, needle in a haystack. Her father (adopted) died in 1972 I traced his death, but I do not know about her mother, the father was born in 1902 so if her mother was a similar age she would be long gone too. My BIL had no contact with his mother's family after his parents marriage broke down. The Salvation Army does seem worth a try Thank you all

Can I just ask, in the event of her having had more children, would/should they have the same surname as she & my BIL? Since she is still married to BIL's father, although the children would only be half siblings. She was only 23 when the marriage failed, she had a stillbirth that year too. So whilst I realise more children were obviously possible, it has always been thought of as highly unlikely Sam

Just a thought but has your Bil considered going to the citizens advice bureau to find out legally where he stands it shouldn't cost anything to speak to them and they'll be able to tell him his rights, this could also give him a bit of ammunition if he contacts social services again if he can state that he has taken legal advice and if he believes his mother may not be being cared for properly it can all be recorded. i think im starting to waffle so i hope this helps

Not sure about other childrens names(if she had any).............she could have given them her maiden name.is that possible legally? OR they could have the name of their father. Ann x

Sammy I have followed your thread since it started, and my heart goes out to your BIL and also you, who is also feeling for him so much. Please though may I put another point of view - that of his mother. I fully appreciate all the comments that have been made by other people about how they cannot understand that she might not want to see him, and therefore feel that the letter may not have come at her wishes, or alternatively that she is just 'not a very nice person'. However, it has come to light in what you have said that she was physically ill-treated by BIL's father. Although it is so many years ago, she may still be traumatised by the time she spent with him. She has hidden from him for all this time - she may well still be really genuinely frightened at the thought of him knowing where she is. Also, BIL was brought up by his father's parents. To her way of thinking, she may see BIL as being a replica of his father. I know this sounds nasty, and I am sure from what you say that he is not, but she will not know this. This was a young woman, beaten, traumatised, who escaped and never wanted to be found again. This has been her life since then. Please bear that in mind in everything that your BIL does. First of all, he has to convince her that he is not a replica of his father. Personally, I would go down the Salvation Army route. They have a lot of experience not only of how BIL feels, but also of how she will feel. I hope that you are not upset by what I have written, and I hope that BIL is able to finally come to a happy conclusion for everyone.

Just to answer a little bit about the surname question. My Dad's first wife gave her child my Dad's surname as they were still legally married at the time. Although she didn't name any father on the birth cert. If a woman is legally married she can name her husband as the father even if he isn't as it is assumed that he is and that if you are married you are not required to take the father with you to register the birth. I guess it would be a matter of choice for her as if she had subsequent children and took the father with her to register the births they can have the father's name. This happened to me as my Mum and Dad were both legally married to other people at the time. It is not as bad as it sounds their marriages broke down - not either of my parents fault and due to the costs involved didn't get divorced for several years. They married 2 days before my sixteenth birthday so that my birth cert could get changed - ah! Pippa

Hi Sammy. I would say thay any later children,born to the ''mother'' and her partner could go in parteners name with his consent...or in her name (even if same as her enstanged husband Bils dad) but the cert would have both of her names on;;ie married name; and ;maiden name;;;; so any more children could be hard to find.....as ''what name do you search for'''????? Kay;;

Thank you for your replies I think Citizens Advice is a good idea too, he was going to them initially but when Social Services was suggested he thought that was a more obvious route....Live & Learn! Tina You certainly have not upset me, they are all valid comments and you haven't mentioned anything that my BIL and I haven't talked about. The fact that his mother could very well be frightened that allowing her son back into her life, may also bring his father, is the very reason my BIL does not want to take the bull by the horns and drive up there. He will respect her wish to be left alone, however hard that may be, when he has had a definite response from her, not a carer. Which is why some intervention is needed, Salvation Army has been suggested. On the previous page of this thread Carole Ann's idea is a good one, my BIL needs to know from a person in authority, a GP or her social worker possibly, that she does not want contact. Of course he would like to know what is wrong with her, if she's being cared for adequately (given the tone of the letter from the carer that is uppermost in his mind) and why she does not want him to be part of her life, but the ball is in her court, she doesn't need to explain does she, but this will affect my BIL for the rest of his life. I don't mean to sound harsh, but she does at least owe him that. Looks like it will all be on hold until Tuesday at least because of BH weekend. Also, I do not know how much, if any, internet access I will have from tomorrow until late Friday evening. I'm off to Creetown in Scotland with my family, visiting my aunt. So if you don't hear anything for a few days I will definitely update when I get back You've all been wonderful, lots of private messages too. I cant tell you how much it has helped to be able to ''talk'' here. Sam

Sam, although your BIL can't get information out of the SS (what an appropriate name for them!) I think he could try a different approach. Instead of asking 'Does my Mother have mental health problems?' to which they won't respond, how about 'My Mother has mental health problems, doesn't she?' If they know he knows, they can respond as they aren't telling anything that isn't already known. I know this may seem not to be the best idea, but what about an article in the local paper '7 year old girl would love to meet her Gran'? Local papers love a human interest story. She may not respond but you can bet your life someone will show it to her and perhaps with a photo of a forlorn looking grandchild, it just may tug at her heartstrings.

Hi Sammy, I've been following this with interest since you first posted, and while I don't have any useful suggestions, I just wanted to let you know I'm rooting for your BIL and hope it all works out for him. Enjoy your break, Julia

I would think twice about using a newpaper story. In view of the past history it may *open doors* to other people who at the moment do not know BILs mothers whereabouts. I can see where Janet is coming from with this idea but would have serious reservations about actually doing it. BIL could, of course ,include a photograph of her grandaughter in his private letter to his mother. Regards Ann x

Sammy (You must be sick of the sight of my name) I think I would keep the lines of communication open with the SS - the more conversations BIL can have with them, the more likelihood there is that something will be let slip. Also, if the Social Worker warms to him and his plight, who knows? I have heard of files 'being left on the desk' while someone goes out of the office - shouldn't say this and don't want to get any Social Worker into trouble, but I know that it does happen occasionally. Another thought that occurs to me, and I hope I am not saying anything offensive here, it isn't meant to be. I have a friend whose mother 'walked out' when he was seven years old. His father and grandparents told him that he must 'run away' if he ever saw her, as she was going to try to kill him.He saw her once outside the school and of course, he was utterly terrified, told a teacher etc. More than thirty years later, he found his mother; he was very angry with her and wanted to know why she had abandoned him and never had any contact with him. Her second husband confirmed her story - she had made countless attempts to see her son, had written, phoned, sent presents, cards and letters and had even called at the Grandparents home. She was threatened with violence (she had been an abused wife) and later was told that her son had not the slightest desire to see her, as far as he was concerned, she was dead. My friend was never told that she had tried to see him and as he was now a young adult, she gave up at this point. When he confronted his father with all this, the explanation was 'We did it for the best, son'. HE doesnt think so. Is it possible that she had made an attempt to see BIL and it was rebuffed by those who thought they 'knew best'. Sorry if this is not the case, as I said, I dont mean to cause offence. I hope you enjoy your break and that there is good news when you get back. Marjorie

How about a message on the trying to find board for members living in Aberystwyth who would be prepared to have a little nose about for you, i know if the lady lived anywhere near me i would willingly take a few trips up and down the road and see if i could see any comings and goings in the house

Hello, I've been following this thread with much interest. I truly hope that your BIL gets to see his mother and put together all the mysteries that must be bugging the heck out of him. I'm not sure if anyone is of the same opinion, and I certainly don't mean to cause offense to anyone, particularly your BIL, but this woman left her 3 year old son behind when fleeing a violent husband. I just can't imagine leaving my child behind with such a violent person. If she could do that, then she can certainly make the decision not to see her 36yr old son. Of course there's all sorts of what ifs - especially those pointed out earlier - she may well have tried to make contact, or to get him back, but was stopped from doing so, somehow. Anyway, I'll stop waffling, because I know I'm not giving you any helpful advice!! Personally I would turn up on her doorstep with a bunch of flowers - pretending to be the delivery person - and see who answers. I wish your BIL the best of luck with his search. Cheers, Kylie

Hi Sam In regards to names on birth certificates... this is a mine field. My mother never married but 'changed' her name to her own mother's maiden name (I'm unsure if this was done officially, it was 1948 so I doubt it, also her cirmustances were such that she wouldn't have been able to pay for it) On my birth certificate it states 'S' as her name in column 5 under Name,surname and maiden surname of mother. I know this to be untrue as her maiden name is 'D'. Like I said it's a mine field and must be very difficult for searchers who don't know all the facts.

Just checking in before I leave, I'm very interested to hear all your points of view, and honestly no one has caused any offense, it's the different views that can really make you think. Maureen Thanks for that idea :) Marjorie(not sick of you....LOL) BIL is very open-minded about his past, has is not angry, bitter etc... his mother may well have made attempts to see him, all he has heard through his life are negative comments about her, I think it must be hard not to be influenced by that, but he doesn't seem to be at all. KG Can I just say, it wasn't quite like that. His mother didn't flee a violent marriage, never to return, abandoning her child. The marriage broke down due to her infidelity (apparently - again this is only relayed by the father & grandparents) and her husband threw her out and told her never to come back. She left, then contacted the husband and told him she was pregnant & in Weymouth, he went to her and she had a stillbirth, he was there. After that, she has never been intouch apart from one visit when she wanted money, and I wonder if we can take that with a pinch of salt too. So I've tried to tell you all everything my BIL was ever told, which as you can see, isn't much! Thank you for your thoughts too Geraldine, like you said, a mine field. If I can check in before Friday I will, but failing that I will update on my return. {{{{{{HUGS}}}}}} to you all Sam