Find Ancestors

I admit that there is possibly circumstantial evidence, in that Bucknell Charles appears only in 1901, in the right place, while Ellesmere Charles doesn't seem to be on the 1901 census, but does reappear in 1911 as a married man.

I still don't get the Elizabeth Williams/ Griffith/ Vaughan/ Bowen thing.

Where is she?

The Charles in 1911 with his Uncle, is, I'm pretty certain the illegitimate child of Elizabeth Bowen who married Thomas Williams Oct 1880. Elizabeth also had a son Peter before her marriage.

But yes AG, it all seems like guesswork as to which is the correct Charles that married Bertha ! The 1901 looks good, but as you say- not a lot of help for finding him elsewhere. I think a fresh look tomorrow might help.

Just a couple of things though- is the death in Bridgend definitely him? What details are on the death certificate?

Are there really ten years between his children, or are the later siblings just registered as though they're Charles children because Bertha was still married?

Yes, I had wondered if Charles and Bertha had parted company, and the later children were perhaps not Charles's at all.

Might be interesting to know who's named as father on Florence's marriage cert:

Florence H Bowen
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
Name: Florence H Bowen
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1937
Registration district: Pontypridd
Inferred County: Glamorgan
Spouse: David R Price
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 820


Not that it would help us find out who Charles was!

Haven't read all through, but saw below Baptisms on google search...(Frenchay Archives)

(and I have a 'Tick' as viewed before for 1939 Florence Price, if I have posted somewhere before!, also below Death)


Deaths Jun 1972 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
BOWEN Arthur Edward C 3Oc1905 Oxford 6b 2611


1939 Register (Find My Past)

3 Pencarreg Road , Llantrisant and Llantwit Fardre R.D., Glamorganshire,
Florence Price 29 Jun 1915 Female Domestic Duties Unpaid Married
David R Price 06 Mar 1916 Male Felter Munition Works Married
(1 closed record)


https://www.freereg.org.uk/

(above has some Bridgend Asylum Burials, not seeing Charles)

Chris :)


1900-1930 - Frenchay Museum Archives

bn 3 Oct 05 Charles & Bertha Bowen Winterbourne Labourer

4 Aug 1915 bap Florence Hilda Charles & Bertha Bowen Winterbourne Miner


BOWEN, ARTHUR CHARLES EDWARD (SMART)
GRO Reference: 1905 D Quarter in CHIPPING SODBURY Volume 06A Page 233

BOWEN, FLORENCE HILDA (SMART)
GRO Reference: 1915 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 1214


Edits (there was below, if relating?) * NO, I see from Marriage posted earlier, her Father as Albert.

05 March 1934 - Western Daily Press - Bristol, Bristol, England

FUNERAL OF MR A. W. SMART, AT WINTERBOURNE.
MR A. W. SMART, AT WINTERBOURNE. __ funeral of Mr Alfred William Smart (74) of Winterbourne Hill Winterbourne, took place on Saturday at Winterbourrte parish church. Canon A IT. Sewell officiated. The principal mourners were: Mrs Bowen (daughter)...


(below were also mentioned in above article, Daughters)


Marriages Dec 1918 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Luton Alexander Smart Chipping Sodbury 6A 528
Smart Hilda Luton Chipping S 6a 528


Marriages Jun 1925 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------
England Moses B Smart Chipping S. 6a 587
Smart Ethel England Chipping S. 6a 587


(Ethel and Hilda with Mother Elizabeth Smart, 1901, Winterbourne, relates to below)

Marriages Sep 1882 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------
Bish Elizabeth Barton Regis 6a 309
Bisp Elizabeth Barton Regis 6a 309
Smart Alfred William Barton R. 6a 309

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1366060?page=1

(just saw above added!)


1939 Register (Find My Past)

Winterbourne Hill , Sodbury R.D., Gloucestershire,
Alexander Lurton 14 Jun 1896 Male Riveter Aeroplane Works Married
Hilda Lurton 29 Feb 1897 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Ronald Lurton 26 May 1919 Male Fitter Aeroplane Works Single


1939 Register (Find My Past)
Thermands Green Farm , Sodbury R.D., Gloucestershire,
Moses B England 13 Aug 1888 Male Repairer Coal Mine (Retired) Widowed
William England 02 Nov 1885 Male Colliery Sawyer Above (Retired) Married
Edith England 15 Aug 1849 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Bernard J England 06 Aug 1910 Male Labourer Balloon Barrage Construction Married
Mary M England 27 Jul 1910 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Amy Warner 21 Apr 1883 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties


Deaths Sep 1935 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
England Ethel 50 Chipping S. 6a 232


12 July 1935 - Western Daily Press - Bristol, Bristol, England

WINTERBOURNE FUNERAL OF MRS E. ENGLAND

Large Number of Relatives Present at Service The funeral of Mrs England, wife of Mr B. England, of Sherman's Green Farm, Mangotsfield, took place at interbourne Church, the service being conducted by Canon E. A. ...”


Have you checked in 'Search All Member Trees' (top right of page here, under 'Search') to se if any of these names are shared?...

Wow,

Thanks everyone for working on this post while I have been out!

I hope it's not giving too many people a headache!

Austin - I spoke to a family member today to see about plying for information.

I was told that Charles Bowen ended up in an Asylum - the story behind it is that the family took in a refugee and that Charles's job was a coal miner (!!) The refugee lad one day said he really didnt want to go working down the mine as he had done with Charles previously...but Charles persuaded him...saying he would be fine...he wasn't and the lad died. Apparently Charles could not deal with the guilt and that's what ended him up in an asylum.
So I found that Charles died on 21st Nov 1924 age 45 and although he was in Bridgend asylum, he was buried in St Michael's Church, Winterbourne, Bristol. This is the church that him and Bertha got married in.

Thanks so much for continuing this Chris...

I appreciate your time.

The newspaper archive is really good!!

I can type in key words so hopefully it will help finding other stuff!!

I am looking to see where Bertha is buried as only Charles name is on the grave stone/vase in St Michaels church in Winterbourne.

This is the 1911 that I have for Bertha that SAFC posted in my Bewildering Bertha thread -
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1366060

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Winterbourne Hill Near Bristol, Winterbourne, Gloucestershire, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
Bertha Bowen Wife Married Female Tailore'ss 30 1881 Winterbourne
Transcription
Auther Bowen Son Single Male School 6 1905 Winterbourne
Transcription
Lilly Smart Lodger Single Female Tailor'Ess 22 1889 Winterbourne


married 8 years 1 born 1 living none died

[RTF]Winterbourne Parish Records - Frenchay Museum Archives
27 Nov 1924 bur Charles Bowen County Asylum, Bridgend, Glamorganshire 45 ...

http://www.frenchaymuseumarchives.co.uk/arch_parish_records.htm

Again from google search.

(so her Father Alfred William, not Albert)...

Chris :)

No advance on the John Bowen though...


Edits (Bertha Baptism, if 1939 should be 1881, and 13 Jan!)


Winterbourne Parish Records - Frenchay Museum Archives

10 April 1881 bap Bertha Elizabeth bn 13 Jan 81 Elizabeth Bisp Winterbourn ...


BISP, ELIZABETH BERTHA -
GRO Reference: 1881 M Quarter in BARTON REGIS Volume 06A Page 206

Ok, found the burials for Charles and Bertha at St Michael's Church.

27 Nov 1924 bur Charles Bowen County Asylum, Bridgend, Glamorganshire 45 years Charles J Burrough, Rector

14 Feb 1950 bur Bertha Elizabeth Bowen 3 Penygaireg Road, Tonyrefail, Pontyehin 69 years Sydney R Worters, Rector
---------------------------------------------------

Anyone up for another go today?!
:-D

(sorry AQ, too much going on in garden, lol, will look in later!, don't give yourself another headache!)

Chris :)

Thought I'd just take a quick look- but I also want to get out in the garden before it gets too hot.

The only other thing I found was Charles listed on the Gloucestershire electoral registers in 1913 at Winterbourne Hill.

I don't see him listed after and as daughter Florence was registered in Pontypridd in 1915 I assume they moved from Winterbourne around 1913/1914

Haven't given up on this, but work keeps getting in the way! Will keep looking back to see everyone else's input. Hopefully we'll get there in the end!

I do agree though that nothing is definite and pointed out that Williams is an extremely common name for that part of the country! :-S :-S

If and only if, the age at Death for Charles is correct it is likely that he was born in 1879 but the birth for the Charles on the 1911 census is given as 1878. Can they be the same person?

Is there any way of accessing the asylum records to see if they give more information?

rootgather
there is a 1879 birth
BOWEN, CHARLES - Order
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in ELLESMERE Volume 06A Page 732

again no mothers name

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar
BOWEN Charles of 3 Pangarreg Road Tonyrefail Glamorganshire died 19 November 1924 at the County Asylum Bridgend Glamorganshire Administration Llandaff 2 January to Bertha Bowen widow. Effects £342

So Definitely the correct death. But I'm still intrigued by the 10 year gap between children (and the fact he wasn't with Bertha in 1911). Could he have been a seaman? In the army? In prison?

So perhaps another one to check out:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Anchored in Yarmouth Harbour, Totland, Hampshire, England
Vessel name: Russell

James Kinch 55 WidowedLeading Stker Goverment worker Liverpool, Lancs
Charles Bowen 31 Married Stoker Bristol, Gloucester
George Welch 22 Single AB Seaman Aldershot, Hants

AAAgghhh! I can't believe it!
I've spent far too much time (hours) composing a long post working back from Charles with uncle Charles Williams in 1911 or whenever it was, and with parents John & Elizabeth in another census (both already posted in this thread) - clicked "Submit" - and it all disappeared !!

Even clicking the "Back" button umpteen times still doesn't make it reappear.

Well, anyway, my conclusion was that the Flintshire Charles, born Bowen in 1879 in Ellesmere, later listed as nephew of Charles Williams, and elsewhere as Charles Williams, son of Thomas and Elizabeth Williams, was simply the illiegitimate son of a girl named Bowen.

I agree with AQ on that.

No complications re Vaughan / Bowen.

If Elizabeth Williams / Vaughan / Bowen / Williams was his mother, and later married Thomas Williams, then Blanche's mms would have been Williams instead of Bowen.

Besides which, it 's not feasible that the Elizabeth Bowen who married Thomas Williams in 4th Quarter 1880 could be the same Elizabeth who married John Bowen on 2nd August 1880.

EDIT

On reading this over, I think I've wasted my time!
There probably wasn't any suggestion that the two Elizabeths were the same person!

I give up - I'm off into the sunshine.

AG!! We will crack this- I'm thinking it's a rainy day project...

Or perhaps we wait for the 1921 census and hope it gives us more clues :-D

Thinking there might be more clues in Frenchay Museum Archives, perhaps...

Did he really know his Father as John Bowen?, after all, Bertha states Albert Smart for her Father, when she was illegitimate, her Step Father being Alfred William Smart...

So many questions, not sure how big a place this Winterbourne is, but seems Charles and Bertha kept in contact there, and both Arthur and Florence Hilda had Baptisms there.

Hmm...lol.

Chris :)

Edits (for address Probate 1924, and Daughter Florence 1939)

The Rhondda Leader 29th November 1919

THOMASTOWN COLLIERY FATALITY.
John Frederick Pipe (31), single, residing at 3 Pengarreg road, Tonyrefail, a native of Islington, employed at the Coedely Collieries, was fatally injured by a fall of roof on Wednesday morning, the 19th inst.

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4616079/4616084/39/

Fabulous find on that fatality Chris- I checked that earlier and couldn't see it!

Winterbourne is a large village in South Gloucestershire, England, situated on the north fringe of Bristol. The village had a population of 8,965 according to the 2011 census.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterbourne,_Gloucestershire


So maybe that Bristol person in 1911 (posted by AQ) is worth thinking about?
Unfortunately, he's as elusive as Charles from Bucknell.
No Charles Bowen (or variation of spelling) was born in Bristol 1878 - 81.

If only our Charles's parents had been considerate enough to give him a more unusual name!