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I'm going with the birth that RG found...

CHARLES
Last name BOWEN
Birth year 1880
Birth quarter 1
Registration month -
Mother's last name -
District Ludlow
County Shropshire
Country England
Volume 6A
Page 588
Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain
© Findmypast


Okay this is where I am totally confused....

please can someone clarify whats been found....

So Charles Bowen was born to Lizzie Bowen? Illegitimate?
why was there no MMN stated?

But Lizzie married John Bowen?
they were both widows when they married one another?
Lizzie had previously married a Vaughan?


Did Lizzie marry John Bowen before Charles was born?
Why isnt a father's name stated?

Alviegal - how did you find out they were widows previous to their marriage to each other??

Thanks all for your help

Is this connected
Elizabeth Griffiths has (Williams ) in brackets daughter of Thomas Williams.
married James Vaughan son of William 4/3/1876 Ludford parish

Maryb

this is marriage posted by alvigal

Last name Vaughan
Birth year 1859
Marriage year 1880
Marriage date 02 Aug 1880
Marriage place Ludford
Denomination Anglican
Residence Ludford
Age 21
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Father's last name Williams
Spouse's first name(s) John
Spouse's last name Bowen
Spouse's residence Ludford
Spouse's age 21
Spouse's father's first name(s) William
Spouse's father's last name Bowen
County Shropshire

original image has them both as widowers, sher is a servant on a farm, father thomas william a labouer
he isa bourer and his father william is a labourer

I just want to put some of the info in order- it's getting a little confused.

Charles Birth (no maiden name on the GRO indicating illegitimate birth):
Births Sep 1879
Bowen Charles Ellesmere 6a 732

Charles Baptism:
First name(s) Charles
Last name Bowan
Birth year 1879
Baptism year 1879
Baptism day 21
Baptism month Sep
Place Hanmer
County Flintshire
Country Wales
Father's first name(s) -
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth
Abode:Willington
Record set Flintshire Baptisms

His Mum marries 1880:
First name(s) ELIZABETH
Last name BOWEN
Marriage quarter 4
Marriage year 1880
Spouse: Thomas Williams
District Ellesmere
County Shropshire
Country England
Volume 6A Page 1353

1881:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Queens Head, Threapwood, Wrexham, Denbighshire, Wales
Thomas Williams Head Married Male 21 1860 General Laborer Willington, Flintshire, Wales
Elizabeth Williams Wife Married Female 23 1858 - Welshampton, Shropshire, England
Charles Williams Son Single Male 1 1880 - Willington, Flintshire, Wales
-------------------------------------------

1891:
1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Tallarn Green, Willington, Ellesmere, Shropshire, England
Thomas Williams Head Married Male 30 1861 Agricultural Laborer Flintshire, Wales
Elizabeth Williams Wife Married Female 31 1860 - Shropshire,
Charles Williams Son - Male 11 1880 Scholar Flintshire, Wales
Lillie Williams Daughter - Female 6 1885 Scholar Flintshire, Wales
Fanny Williams Daughter - Female 5 1886 Scholar Flintshire, Wales
Blanche Williams Daughter - Female 2 1889 - Flintshire, Wales
--------------------------------

Birth of Blanche (Charles sister)- with mother's maiden name:

WILLIAMS, BLANCHE mmn: BOWEN
GRO Reference: 1888 D Quarter in ELLESMERE Volume 06A Page 675
---------------------------------------------

In 1911 Charles is living with Thomas's brother, Charles.

James
Last name Vaughan
Birth year 1855
Marriage year 1876
Marriage date 04 Mar 1876
Marriage place Ludford
Denomination Anglican
Residence Ludford
Age 21
Father's first name(s) William
Father's last name Vaughan
Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth
Spouse's last name Griffiths
Spouse's residence Ludford
Spouse's age 21
Spouse's father's first name(s) Thomas
Spouse's father's last name William
County Shropshire
Register date range 1837-1900
Archive reference P175/A/3/4
Page 143


oh
both aged 21, both widowers
he is a labourer, shes a washerwomen
her father thomas williamsa labourer
witnesses thomas and harriett williams

I'm not understanding the marriages that are being posted.

This looks to be the correct marriage:
First name(s) ELIZABETH
Last name BOWEN
Marriage quarter 4
Marriage year 1880
Spouse: Thomas Williams
District Ellesmere
County Shropshire
Country England

EDIT: A tree on ancestry has the date of marriage as 13th October 1880 - there's a note to say it's taken from marriage certificate.


Volume 6A Page 1353

Thank you for putting info in order Austin and thank you for your input Maddie..

My next question is...

where does John Bowen come into this.

Charles states his father on his marriage entry as John Bowen?
I apologise if I am struggling to follow!

Griffiths is a total new name to my research too!

This is the definite parish entry for Charles Bowen who married Bertha Smart in 1903 in Winterbourne, Gloucestershire.

No375 31st October 1903:
Charles Bowen 25 Bachelor Labourer Winterbourne John Bowen Labourer
Bertha Elizabeth Smart 23 Spinster - Winterbourne Albert Smart Miner
Solemnised between us Charles Bowen & Bertha Elizabeth Smart by ATS Goodrick, Rector
In the presence of us Thomas Harmer & Beatrice Maud Curtis after Banns

OK- so perhaps I do need to look at the Ludford marriage?

But if the Ludford marriage comes into it, then that 1911 census with Charles staying at his uncles, is incorrect.

I have to pop out, I'll try and check it out later.

So this is what I was looking at....

Although I dont understand how Elizabeth had Charles when she was a Vaughan and he was named Bowen....not unless she knew she was going to marry Bowen so named charles under that surname and just didnt state a father???

Shropshire marriages Transcription

Learn more
Print transcription View image
First name(s) Elizabeth
Last name Vaughan
Birth year 1859
Marriage year 1880
Marriage date 02 Aug 1880
Marriage place Ludford
Denomination Anglican
Residence Ludford
Age 21
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Father's last name Williams
Spouse's first name(s) John
Spouse's last name Bowen
Spouse's residence Ludford
Spouse's age 21
Spouse's father's first name(s) William
Spouse's father's last name Bowen
County Shropshire

It is a bit confusing Austin, I'm a little lost :-S :-S

I was thinking that if Elizabeth Vaughan/Bowen who stated her father as Thomas Williams is correct then wouldn't Charles Bowen be nephew by marriage? Charles Williams is head of household, he is brother to Thomas who is Elizabeth's father so Charles is her uncle and Charles Bowen is her husband so could still be classed as Nephew?

Phew....

I wonder if that actually makes sense :-\

so are thomas and charles brothers ???
Thomas
Last name Williams
Birth year 1860
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1860
Baptism day 22
Baptism month Apr
Place Hanmer
County Flintshire
Country Wales
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth

Charles
Last name Williams
Birth year 1873
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1873
Baptism day 24
Baptism month Jun
Place Hanmer
County Flintshire
Country Wales
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth
Record set Flintshire Baptisms

Yes Maddie, they are brothers- mother was Elizabeth Brookfield

WILLIAMS, THOMAS mmn: BROOKFIELD
GRO Reference: 1860 J Quarter in ELLESMERE Volume 06A Page 657

WILLIAMS, CHARLES mmn: BROOKFIELD
GRO Reference: 1873 S Quarter in ELLESMERE Volume 06A Page 709

So would I be right in thinking that Elizabeth maiden name : Williams
she then married Vaughan in 1876 in Ludford.

She was then widowed and married John Bowen who is Charles father?

I hope we are on the right track...

so the 1911 is correct ???
110 St Anne St Chester, Chester, Cheshire, England

Charles Williams Head Married Male Labourer 39 1872 Flintshire Hammer
Elizabeth Williams Wife Married Female - 37 1874 Flintshire Hammer
>>Charles Bowen Nephew Married Male Labourer 33 1878 Flintshire Hammer
Fredrick Charles Mathews Boarder Married Male Traveler Dealer In Gramaphones 38 1873 America Resident
Agnes Mathews Boarder Married Female - 35 1876 Edinburgh Scotland
Robt Lindsey Mathews Boarder - Male - 4 1907 Leith Scotland
Hope Ernest Mathews Boarder - Male - 2 1909 Leith Scotland
Helen Hogg Price Boarder Widow Female Teacher Of Music 40 1871 Polton Lasswade
Helen Mary Price Boarder - Female - 8 1903 Berwick N B Mitchelstown Co Cork T

there is no birth for charles bowen in flintshire so pob on 1911 is wrong

There are no Elizabeth Williams born to Thomas Williams and Elizabeth Brookfield.

I still can't make that marriage to Vaughan or Bowen fit with a birth of Charles c1879.

I still think that the Charles living with his uncle in 1911 was the illegitimate child of Elizabeth Bowen that later married Thomas Williams.

However, whether that Charles is the Charles that married Bertha Smart is not certain.

Maddie- the Hamner births register under Ellesmere

This would be that Charles birth as posted earlier:

Charles Birth (no maiden name on the GRO indicating illegitimate birth):
Births Sep 1879
Bowen Charles Ellesmere 6a 732

I've just deleted what thought was his service record because I'm not sure, and because I have a headache, and because I think I might have to give up for the day


Posting again just in case!

First name(s) Charles
Last name Bowen
Birth year 1880
Birth parish Tallen Green
Birth town Malpas
Birth county Cheshire
Birth country England
Service number 30726
Regiment Royal Artillery
Year 1898
Attestation date 11 Oct 1898
Attestation age years 18
Attestation age months 1
Attestation service number 30726
Attestation corps Royal Artillery
Discharge corps Royal Artillery
Document type Attestation

States he was a butcher. Not looking like the chap that married Bertha Smart! This man was still in service until 1910.

Mother Elizabeth Williams of Tallon Green (crossed throught and Threapwood written over)
Elder brother Peter Bowen, younger sister Lily Bowen
--------------------------------------------------

So, would one of these be the brother:

BOWEN, PETER mmn:
GRO Reference: 1875 S Quarter in ELLESMERE Volume 06A Page 734
BOWEN, PETER mmn:
GRO Reference: 1877 J Quarter in ELLESMERE Volume 06A Page 747
----------------------------------

Baptism:
First name(s) Peter
Last name Bowen
Birth year 1877
Baptism year 1877
Baptism day 29
Baptism month Apr
Place Hanmer
County Flintshire
Country Wales
Father's first name(s) -
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth
Record set Flintshire Baptisms

I'm not surprised you have a headache, AQ!

I don't wish to pour cold water on everyone's research -

but -

there's a lot of guesswork going on!

The Charles Bowen who married Bertha is the one we're looking for, but we have nothing to go on, other than that he said he was 25 in 1903, he said his father was John, and as at 1903 he was living in Winterbourne.

We don't know if the one living in Winterbourne in 1901 is the same person - though it seems feasible.

However, we have no idea where he was born. If he was indeed born in Bucknell, there's no sign of him in any other census.

While the research about the Charles born in Ellesmere, his mother Elizabeth and her various husbands, does seem to hang together, there's nothing to prove that he is the Charles who married Bertha.

Or have I missed something? I feel totally confused.

snap :-(