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Ahh okay, thanks Austin!

Can safely rule that one out then!

I'm hoping I hear from Glamorgan Archives soon.

Or I may post and ask if anyone lives near there!

:-D

This is John and Caroline in 1891:

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Sterry Road, Loughor, Llanelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales

John Bowen Head Married Male 35 1856 Railway Signalman Bucknell, Herefordshire, England
Caroline Bowen Wife Married Female 35 1856 - Worcester, Worcestershire, England
John W Bowen Son - Male 14 1877 File Graph Clerk Glamorgan, Wales
Charles T Bowen Son - Male 13 1878 - Gowerton, Glamorgan, Wales
Robert J Bowen Son - Male 11 1880 - Glamorgan, Wales
Richard Bowen Son - Male 9 1882 - Gowerton, Glamorgan, Wales
Jane Bowen Daughter - Female 7 1884 - Gowerton, Glamorgan, Wales
Emma Bowen Daughter - Female 6 1885 - Gowerton, Glamorgan, Wales
Jessie Bowen Daughter - Female 3 1888 - Gowerton, Glamorgan, Wales
Caroline Bowen Daughter - Female 1 1890 - Gowerton, Glamorgan, Wales

Squeaky

The census put up by Choccy was this one:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Craven Arms Road, Hopesay, Clun, Shropshire, England

Herbert Teague Head Married Male 24 1857 Blacksmith Kempton, Shropshire, England
Sarah Teague Wife Married Female 24 1857 Wife Of Blacksmith Clunton, Shropshire, England
Mary Teague Daughter Single Female 2 1879 Infant Kempton, Shropshire, England
Charles Bowen Boarder Single Male 1 1880 Infant Munslow, Shropshire, England

The above Charles was an illegitimate child - AG posted his birth- so unlikely his father was John Bowen:

BOWEN, CHARLES - (no mother's maiden name- indicating illegitimate birth)
GRO Reference: 1880 M Quarter in LUDLOW Volume 06A Page 588
----------------------------------------------

I then posted this 1881 census- John and Caroline:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Howells Place, Loughor Parish (Glamorgan), Llanelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales

John Bowen Head Married Male 25 1856 Signalman G W Ry Radnorshire, Wales
Caroline Bowen Wife Married Female 25 1856 - Worcester, Worcestershire, England
William John Bowen Son Single Male 5 1876 Scholar Glamorgan, Wales
Charles Thomas Bowen Son Single Male 3 1878 - Glamorgan, Wales
Robert James Bowen Son Single Male 1 1880 -

Caroline and John's Charles was born in 1878:

BOWEN, CHARLES THOMAS mmn: TEAGUE
GRO Reference: 1878 J Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 768

However, Caroline and Johns child, Charles Thomas died in 1900- so can't be your Charles.

I can't seem to stop thinking about Charles!

The post that Choccy put with mother being Caroline Teague who married John Bowen... i keep thinking Charles mother is definitely Elizabeth but where did Elizabeth come from? Is that just from a census return ? So there is no proof that Charles's mother is definitely Elizabeth either??
If anything- because we are not sure which birth is right for Charles - we have more proof that John is his dad - with it being on his marriage entry - than we do Elizabeth being his mum!!

Or am I missing something???!

Someone pass me the headache pills ..... :-S

I think I'm going to wait until you've had a reply from the Glamorgan Archives- I don't want to confuse anything further! Gawd- I hope they can help

Birth:
CURTIS, BEATRICE MAUD (Mother's maiden name: THOMAS)
GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in BARTON REGIS Volume 06A Page 193

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Winterbourne Hill, Winterbourne, Barton Regis, Gloucestershire, England

Austen Curtis Head Married Male 44 1857 Coal Miner Gloucestershire,
Eliza A Curtis Wife Married Female 41 1860 - Gloucestershire, England
Beatrice M Curtis Daughter Single Female 19 1882 - Gloucestershire,
Frank Curtis Son Single Male 16 1885 Mason Labourer Gloucestershire
Charles A Curtis Son Single Male 13 1888 - Gloucestershire,
Hilda L Curtis Daughter Single Female 5 1896 - Gloucestershire,
---------------------------------------------

(marriage for her parents) Gloucestershire, Bristol Marriage Index
First name(s) Charles Austin
Last name Curtis
Sex Male
Marital status Single
Marriage year 1881
Marriage date 19 Sep 1881
Marriage place Bristol, St Matthias, Gloucestershire, England
Father's first name(s) Charles
Father's last name Curtis
Spouse's first name(s) Eliza Ann
Spouse's last name Thomas
Spouse's sex Female
Spouse marital status Single
Spouse's father's first name(s) Henry
Spouse's father's last name Thomas
Place Bristol, St Matthias
County Gloucestershire

The one thing that really stands out to me about 'Our' Charles which is a definite, just in case people have missed it as its near the beginning...

The census return that Alviegal posted for 1901:

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Winterbourne, Barton Regis, Gloucestershire, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Charles Harmer Head Married Male 61 1840 General Labourer Winterbourne, Gloucestershire, England
Transcription
Pamela Harmer Wife Married Female 58 1843 - Winterbourne, Gloucestershire, England
Transcription
Fanny Harmer Daughter Single Female 34 1867 - Winterbourne, Gloucestershire, England
Transcription
Thomas Harmer Son Single Male 21 1880 Stone Dresser Winterbourne, Gloucestershire, England
Transcription
Charles Bowen Boarder Single Male 23 1878 Black Smiths Striker Bucknell, Shropshire, England

Now the parish record of Charles and Bertha's marriage :

No375 31st October 1903:
Charles Bowen 25 Bachelor Labourer Winterbourne John Bowen Labourer
Bertha Elizabeth Smart 23 Spinster - Winterbourne Albert Smart Miner
Solemnised between us Charles Bowen & Bertha Elizabeth Smart by ATS Goodrick, Rector
In the presence of us Thomas Harmer & Beatrice Maud Curtis after Banns

NOTE - The marriage witnesses - Thomas Harmer is who Charles was Boarding with in 1901. I wondering who Beatrice Maud Curtis is....

okay, thanks for that suggestion, glad we can definitely rule that one out!

I have contacted family member to try and ply them for any info about Charles - siblings, birth place etc. Even if it is hearsay, it may help!!

Last time was the story about the lad getting killed in the mine which Chris Ho found the story about, I'm hoping this time something else may come to light,

Fingers crossed
:-D

No- that birth is this one (he died 1900):

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Howells Place, Loughor Parish (Glamorgan), Llanelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales

John Bowen Head Married Male 25 1856 Signalman G W Ry Radnorshire, Wales
Caroline Bowen Wife Married Female 25 1856 - Worcester, Worcestershire, England
William John Bowen Son Single Male 5 1876 Scholar Glamorgan, Wales
Charles Thomas Bowen Son Single Male 3 1878 - Glamorgan, Wales
Robert James Bowen Son Single Male 1 1880 -

Burial:
First name(s) Charles Thomas
Last name Bowen
Age 22
Birth year 1878
Burial year 1900
Burial date 21 Apr 1900
Place Loughor
Parish Loughor
County Glamorganshire

Is it this one?- listed as Charles Thomas- I thought I'd looked into him, but I may be losing the plot!

BOWEN, CHARLES THOMAS mmn: TEAGUE
GRO Reference: 1878 J Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 768

Oh dear me.....

SO really .... this could be another possibility for 'Our' Charles parents?

And it connects with the birthplace that was stated in 1881.

I feel like sobbing lol...

I am grateful for Choccy finding this information as well because it does fit in as well as other suggestions!!

Any one near Glamorgan??? Lol.

:-D

Knighton reg district includes Bucknell, where the Charles in Winterbourne in 1881 said he was born.

But I can't see the birth of a Charles Bowen with mms Teague or similar in 1879 +/- 2.

As Munslow is in Ludlow reg district, this would seem to be that child's birth - another one with no mms!

BOWEN, CHARLES - (no mms)
GRO Reference: 1880 M Quarter in LUDLOW Volume 06A Page 588

As he's listed as a boarder in 1881, not a grandson, he may not be any relation - just a "boarded out" or fostered illegitimate baby.




Don't know if Caroline is related to Herbert or not - she's not a sister, anyway:


Herbert Fague
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Herbert Fague
[Herbert Teague]
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: 1857
Relation: Son
Father's name: Richard Fague
Mother's name: Sarah Fague
Gender: Male
Where born: Clunbury, Shropshire, England
Civil Parish: Kempton
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Registration district: Clun
Sub-registration district: Clun
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 87
Piece: 1840
Folio: 89
Page Number: 19
Household Members:
Name Age
Richard Fague 38
Sarah Fague 36
Richard Fague 12
William Fague 11
John Fague 9
Mary Ann Fague 5
Herbert Fague 4
Edwin Fague 2
John Dodd 21


His parents & Brother in 1851:

Richard I Ragen
in the 1851 England Census
Name: Richard I Ragen
[Richard I Teague]
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Son
Father's name: Richard Ragen
Mother's name: Sarah Ragen
Gender: Male
Where born: Claines, Worcestershire, England
Civil Parish: Claines
Town: Worcester
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Street address:
Registration district: Worcester
Sub-registration district: West Worcester
ED, institution, or vessel: 1b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 185
Piece: 2042
Folio: 327
Page Number: 41
Household Members:
Name Age
Richard Ragen 26
Sarah Ragen 30
Richard I Ragen 2

Not sure if this connection has been considered??


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

Craven Arms Road, Hopesay, Clun, Shropshire, England


Herbert Teague Head Married Male 24 1857 Blacksmith Kempton, Shropshire, England

Sarah Teague Wife Married Female 24 1857 Wife Of Blacksmith Clunton, Shropshire, England

Mary Teague Daughter Single Female 2 1879 Infant Kempton, Shropshire, England

Charles Bowen Boarder Single Male 1 1880 Infant Munslow, Shropshire, England



Marriages Dec 1875

Bowen John Knighton 11b 303

TEAGUE Caroline Knighton 11b 303

Just to stress one final (!) time:

Re John - he may or may not be the father of the Charles who married Bertha. We don't know!

Also, we do not know if Elizabeth Williams (nee Bowen)'s son is the same Charles or not .

I agree with AQ. If his asylum records give an exact DOB, you could see if it matches the exact DOB of Ellesmere Charles.

Hello Austin!

Thanks for returning and risking the chance of a headache!

I did send an email to Glamorgan Archives. Because of bank holiday there may be a longer delay on replying though.

In the meantime, I could have a look on the GR boards to see if anyone is near enough and is planning a trip to the archives maybe :-)

Notice how quiet I've been? I really didn't want the headache today!

Squeaky, did you contact the Glamorgan archives re Charles admission/ asylum records? (I think AG posted the web address earlier)

If you couldn't get there it might be worth asking if they can help- or see what the charge is for them to look.

If his records contained an exact date of birth, we'd have a better chance at finding the correct man.

Okay, thanks AG,

So we are definitely going with the Ellesmere Charles.

It's now John Bowen that is a question mark also!

Think for now I am going to just research the siblings and other branches.

Although I will have a look through the parish records and newspaper archives too!
Plus I need to have a proper look through some of what was posted previously, funeral posting etc
:-)

Whether or not John was Charles's father, (and we'll never know for sure) I would say his birth was still illegitimate.

Elizabeth's maiden surname was Bowen, and there's no record of a marriage between a John Bowen and an Elizabeth Bowen in the right area.

Oh my goodness AG??

Could that be charles's father?

Is that why he wasnt named as his father?
So it looks illegitimate but isnt?
He was in prison so wasnt named as father??

ahhhhh!!!

This could all link up too??

and just before charles birth!!

I might have a look in the british newspaper archives, see if anything comes up!

:-D

Just a possibility - but could be anyone:

Jno Bowen
in the UK, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960
Name: Jno Bowen
Gender: Male
Age: 33
Birth Date: abt 1859
Departure Date: 16 Mar 1892
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Destination Port: New York, USA
Ship Name: City of Chicago
Master: Arthur Redford