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thank you for that info on nellie. I still cannot locate her birth though.

I shall contact GRO to see if they can check the above details for my mum. to confirm it is the right one.

Yes the family have ok'd me using this information.

thank you for your help

thank you for giving me the info on auntie nellie's birth I shall try and verify this one also.

Can someone do a look up for a llewellyn thomas in the 1911 census. Believe the birth approx 1908 and death approx 1925. This possibly is the first child of annie thomas. The family advise me that he died around the age of 17. The father of this child was not william phillips. Father is unknown to me but family believe it was from a previous relationship. If this was annie's first child then the 1911 census should show this child in the same household. Family indicate he had blonde hair and blue eyes. As william was west indian this child was not his. This could be a clue to annie's family.

thank you ruth

With those dates, Llewellyn should have died in the Newport district. However, I'm not seeing anything that fits.

Rose

Any good?:
Deaths Jun 1926
Thomas Llewellyn 14 Merthyr T. 11a 692

That death puts him born 1911/1912 but there are no births that fit where the MMN is Thomas.

Rose

I know, but it is the only remotely possible obvious death, so I wanted Ruth's comments.
Ruth says that he is only possibly the first child of Annie, so possibly someone else's son?

I have been in touch with the GRO today regarding checking this death for llewelyn and the reference of 11a 692 that you have provided. They have indicated they will check 1925 - 1927 but it will take about three weeks. If we find the death then this will give us the date of birth.
I note your comments about llewelyn and no william phillips was not the father. We dont know who the father was.

This is pure guesswork as no-one seems to have any information that may help me.
I have also asked them to do a check on my mothers(mary phillips) birth certificate as it was indicated that the one I have is not marys.
The family are adamant that Llewelyn was buried in st barwgs church in bedwas, glamorganshire, south wales. So as there was possibly no headstone I have to find out how to obtain records of where the child and maybe other children who were buried in the church grounds.


Can anyone also tell me if my grandfather worked on board ships between wales, canada, usa, did he need to have a merchant seaman ticket to work.

Bedwas comes under Newport District if that helps.

Rose

?
Deaths Jun 1929
Thomas Llewellyn E 13 Newport M. 11a 291

Unfortunately I cannot see a Llewellyn E Thomas birth.

Only birth:
Births Dec 1915
Thomas Llewelyn Thomas Llandilofawr 11a 2235

Can anyone give me the name of a site that can tell me what cemetaries were open in the early 1900's if/ the family lived in trethomas, south wales?

patchem's death looks interesting, with there being no birth to match.

Deaths Jun 1929
Thomas Llewellyn E 13 Newport M. 11a 291

This looks like the best match for a birth
-edit- no it doesn't, duh, the birth would have to be 1915-16; I confused myself with something else in the thread

Births Mar 1913
Roberts Llewelyn E Baxter Merthyr T. 11a 1525

If the mother had (re)married to a Thomas that would explain the surname at death. There are a couple of Ms. Roberts + Mr. Thomas marriages in Merthyr T between the dates that could account for the change. (I don't see a Ms. Baxter + Mr. Roberts marriage that would be a likely candidate for the parents, but they may not have been married.)

A child's death certificate commonly names the parents, I think, so that one could be worth checking out.



For your various questions, Ruth, like cemetaries in Trethomas, those are things that no one is likely to know offhand, and would have to find by internet searches, so you might want to try doing that yourself. Searching for

trethomas cemeteries

will find you the nearby ones that exist now, and you could contact them to enquire, for example.

Isn't Bedwas likely to be the best bet?

http://www.caerphilly.gov.uk/site.aspx?s=hLO/R7KxlH9+cSL8RS519qaKp8oPseN6rZlwYO508zkPhASR+wK2SA==

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There are 10 cemeteries in Caerphilly county borough.

Making enquiries

All enquiries regarding cemeteries must be directed to Bereavement Services using the address on the right hand side of this webpage. The addresses provided for the cemeteries below are for direction purposes only. They are not postal addresses and any mail directed there is unlikely to be answered.

The bereavement office holds records of burials at these site as far back as 1888. This is with the exception of Bedwellty where any records prior to 1982 can only be viewed at the church. If you wish to view any of these records please call us and make an appointment.
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There we are, it gives the operating dates for all of them.

re Nellie/Ellen Phillips Bly Goddard Cowan - is this her death?

Name: Ellen Cowan
> Birth Date: 30 Apr 1917
Death Registration Month/Year: Jul 1997
Age at death (estimated): 80
Registration district: Newport
Inferred County: Glamorgan, Monmouthshire, Shropshire, Staffordshire
Register number: B52C
District and Subdistrict: 8361B
Entry number: 150

Name: Thomas Cowan
Birth Date: 26 Jun 1921
Death Registration Month/Year: Apr 2003
Age at death (estimated): 81
Registration district: Newport
Inferred County: Glamorgan, Monmouthshire, Shropshire, Staffordshire
Register number: C95C
District and Subdistrict: 836/1C
Entry number: 65


No Nellie/Ellen Phillips or mother Thomas birth to match that birthdate, of course.

I am utterly confused:

"My mum always said her date of birth was 18th march 1919 but her birth certificate states 19th february, 1919. Name: mary - girl - fathers name - thomas henry phillips mother - mary phillips formerly thomas. fathers occupation coal hewer - informant - mary phillips mother 6, foremans row aberdare - registered 28th march 1919."

Weren't the parents William Phillips and Annie Ellen Thomas??

I'm with Rose when she says:


I'm thinking this could be your mother's birth cert.
Births Jun 1919
Phillips Annie M Thomas Newport M. 11a 453


This is the marriage of the parents for the Mary Phillips birth certificate you have:

Marriages Mar 1913
Phillips Thomas H Thomas Merthyr T. 11a 1325
Thomas Mary Phillips Merthyr T. 11a 1325


I had also missed where Rose mentioned the Cowan death I posted above, and I'm with her on this one too, at least as far as it being worth checking out:


Perhaps this is her birth under Thomas with the P standing for Phillips?
Births Sep 1917
Thomas Ellen P Thomas Newport M 11a 522


Would your uncle Aneurin consider applying for his birth certificate? I'm assuming he doesn't have one. Possibly for the person themself, the GRO would do more intensive searching; he can give an exact date of birth and parents' names.

edit -- Rose, I think you're right again; if this is Aneurin's marriage:

Aneurin S E Phillips + Williams Apr-May-Jun 1960 East Glamorgan

then this has got to be his birth:

Iran S E Phillips Jul Aug Sep 1934 Cardiff



(Rose -- check out my sig line! I offer it for your consideration. ;) )

I just felt like summarizing / considering the Annie Ellen & parents possibilities.


Two possible marriages have been suggested for Thomas Thomas + Ellen (Mary):

Marriages Sep 1888
LEHAN Ellen Merthyr T. 11a 778
THOMAS Thomas Merthyr T. 11a 778

Marriages Dec 1892
Mathias Ellen Mary Bridgend 11a 1107
Thomas Thomas Bridgend 11a 1107


Births to match those Ellens:

Births Jun 1873
MATHIAS Ellen Mary Neath 11a 546

Births Mar 1867
LEHAN Ellen Merthyr T 11a 383


The name is a better match for Mathias, but Lehan is a better match for the 1911 household in Merthyr T posted -- except the place of birth in 1911 is way off:

THOMAS, Thomas Head - Married 22 years - age 45 1866
Fireman Below Ground born Carnarvon (Llanyslan?)
THOMAS, Ellen Wife age 45 1866 born Denbigshire Llan
THOMAS, Annie Ellen Daughter Single age 15 1896 Brecknock Vaynor


Can't see Lehan in 1871 or 1881; Mathias in 1881:

Name: Ellen M. Mathias
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: James Mathias
Mother's name: Elenor Mathias
Where born: Bridgend, Glamorgan, Wales
Civil parish: Coyty Lower
County/Island: Glamorgan


This is certainly the 1911 household in 1901:

Name: Ellen Ann Thomas
Age in 1901: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1896
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Thomas R Thomas
Mother's name: Ellen Thomas
Where born: Aushire, Glamorgan, Wales -no; it just says Glamorganshire

Civil parish: Dyserth
County/Island: Flintshire
Registration district: St Asaph

Thomas R Thomas 35 - born Llanidan, Caernarvonshire, quarryman
Ellen Thomas 36 - born Llanddewi, Denbighshire
Ellen Ann Thomas 5


but this looks like the most likely marriage for that couple:

Marriages Sep 1893
Morris Ellen Llanrwst 11b 525
Thomas Thomas Robert Llanrwst 11b 525
(The district Llanrwst spans the boundaries of the counties of Caernarvonshire and Denbighshire)


Births Mar 1896
Thomas Ellen Ann Pontypridd 11a 483

Births Jun 1896
Thomas Ann Ellen Pontypridd 11a 604

Both could have just turned 5 before the 1901 census / 15 before the 1911 census.

1901 gives Annie Ellen's place of birth as Vaynor. Vaynor reg dist, Brecknockshire, was created 1934 out of Merthyr Tydfil district; in 1974 it was abolished and succeeded by Merthyr Tydfil and Pontypridd districts.

What I'd have to read the entire thread to find ;) -- has either of those birth certificates been checked?

Thank you everyone for your input with this family. This information is great and I will now try and follow it through further.
The Llewelyn death certificate is currently being checked by GRO along with my mums birth certificate (Mary Phillips.)
One of my other members of family are trying to obtain Aneurin Phillips birth certificate.
Ellen or Nellie Phillips or Thomas I cannot locate anything either and the family do not have a birth certificate for her. So will try and get GRO to do a check for this one. Nellie was the oldest surviving child I am told so I may have to look at a birth between 1912 - 1917 as thereafter annie had a child every year until 1919 when my mother was born. My uncle Ted(Edward) was born in 1926. The gap between 1920 and 1925 could be children deceased. One of my uncles informs me that there was a flu pandemic in the early 1920's so could be some childrens deaths during this period. I have a cousin checking this out in bedwas cemetary so great grandparents could also be buried in the same cemetry so she will investigate this as she lives close by..
I shall also try and obtain some info from the bereavement office.
The information on the family thomas thomas & ellen & annie ellen looks logical now to me.
I shall ask GRO to check the details first but which certificate would you suggest would be more beneficial for me to start with due to the minimal amount of information I have to hand for them to confirm as the nans birth certificate does require the mothers single name?
:-)
thanks ruth

Rose, your right I received my mothers birth certificate in the mail today and after several searches by GRO, it was under Annie Mary Phillips 18.3.1919, newport, bedwas, monmouth. Father william henry phillips, mother annie ellen phillips, formerly thomas, residence 29 william street, trethomas, bedwas, south wales.
So ref 11a 453 is the correct one.

thanks for your help. :-)

Just received death certificate from GRO for Llewellyn. The only reference is column no 21. Date of death 20.5.1929. Name: LLewellyn Edwin Thomas. Age 13 years old, male. Shows son of annie ellen thomas late edwins now wife of william henry phillips.(coal miner ) (ripper). Informant Thomas Thomas grandfather present at death 29 william street, trethomas, bedwas.
This confirms I have the right family as the address is the same as annie and williams address at time of marriage in 1921.
The other item of interest looks like annie may have been married before as it states thomas late edwins - do you beleive that is the case?
This means llewellyn must have been born in 1915 but where is the question.
So now will need to get GRO to check and locate the birth in 1915. If you have any suggestions it would be appreciated. I believe the following to be the marriage.


Ernest Edwins
Spouse Surname:Thomas
Date of Registration:
Apr-May-Jun 1916
Registration district:Bridgend
Inferred County:Glamorgan
Volume Number:11a
Page Number:1333

There was an ernest edwins killed in action in flanders in 1917 but does not show any documents to confirm whether this is the same person. However, the residence at that time is Ammanford which is carmarthenshire.
If you can help with verification or additional information on any of this to help me it would be appreciated.