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Hi,

I have tried to look into the details of Annie Ellen. Is there any other way of verification of these details, which may show my grandmothers mother's name. The family cannot verify any of this information and indicate they cant remember anything about the family. Would there be any election roll etc. during that time. Do you have any other suggestions. Would parish records give me any more information about the mother e. g my grandmothers wedding. Also I have found a child I believe to have been born out of wedlock. This was given to me by another member of the family. How can I determine whether I have the correct person as the mothers name on the record is thomas and the same area. Will births deaths and marriages check the information albeit limited before sending it out to me. This would veryify the mothers name if this is correct. Any ideas for me to work on?

Just to recap...

Married 1921 aged 29
So born c 1892.

The only entry for 1892

Births Sep 1892 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Annie Ellen Runcorn 8a 214

......................................................

The only other Annie Ellen within a couple of years either side is :

Births Sep 1894
THOMAS Annie Ellen - Neath 11a 7[35]8

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Father named as Thomas Thomas.
Mother possibly Ellen Mary.


So possibly :
Marriages Dec 1892 ------------------------------------------------

Mathias Ellen Mary - Bridgend 11a 1107
Thomas Thomas - Bridgend 11a 1107

This annie ellen runcorn cannot trace the birth and have entered the ref 8a 214 can you tell me what area she was born in? As I am told we are totally welsh ancestors? Was she actually married to thomas thomas?
thanks

The Annie Ellen Thomas of 1892 was born in Runcorn which is Cheshire. Bordering on North Wales but I think your Annie is more likely to be the one born in Neath in 1894 ( only the certificate would confirm it)

Neither would have been married to Thomas Thomas, as I understand it he was Annie's father wasn't he ?

Looks like Thomas Thomas married Ellen Mary Mathias in Bridgend in 1892 .

Parish records ?

Did you not send for birth and/or marriage certificates?

Hi Mike,
Do you mean the father (Thomas Thomas) marriage record. If so the problem here is that thomas was married more than once and the family can only remember one of the wives. They believe her name to be Ellen Mary but are unsure.

Annies marriage certificate I do have but it does not help me any in regard to where her family originated from. Annie was married in south wales.

I am told the family came from snowdonia area and moved to south wales in the late 1800's which would mean that annie could be born either north or south wales. However, if Llewelyn is her children he was born in the north.

In regards to thomas thomas' checking records which come close are nearly all from the south.

I do believe that the parish records may show baptism records of either annie or llewelyn and maybe show the parents would be more beneficial what do you think?

1911? this family?

THOMAS, Thomas Head
Married
22 years
age 45 1866 Fireman Below Ground born Carnarvon (Llanyslan not sure this spelling is correct translation?)

THOMAS, Ellen Wife age 45 1866 born Denbigshire Llan
THOMAS, Annie Ellen Daughter Single age 15 1896 Brecknock Vaynor
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
32476 Reference:
RG14PN32476 RG78PN1856 RD590 SD3 ED26 SN232

Registration District:
Merthyr Tydfil Sub District:
Upper Merthyr Tydfil Enumeration District:
26 Parish:
Vaynor

Address:
15a Cefn Isaf Cefn Cocd Merthyr Tydfil

the 1911 image says they had 9 children 8 died
It says married 22years

Hi Can someone do a look up in the 1911 census for thomas R thomas 1866 married to Ellen Thomas 1865 (i think her single name is mathias) with a daughter ellen ann thomas 1896.
Details as indicated by Jax above.
If someone could find the address at the time of the 1911 census would be a great help. Was there also any additions to the family e.g. other children at that time.

thanks ruth

Ruth,
jansmith has posted the 1911 census.

Is that not it above given to you by Jansmith?

jax

snap Patchem

Ruth,

If she is 29 in 1921 then that puts her born c1892. Is this correct? I find it hard to believe she had 12 children after the age of 29, unless she was having twins.

What was her age when she married for a second time?

Who were the witnesses to the marriage? Any relatives?

Rose

"Will births deaths and marriages check the information albeit limited before sending it out to me."

Do you mean the General Register Office, Ruth? They no longer offer a checking service. But some have said that if you telephone they'll do a check for you.

Ancestry, GenesReunited, etc., hold no records/documents at all. They have transcriptions of various records, is all. For example, they have transcriptions of the GRO index of births, deaths and marriages. They do not hold any certificates.


Is this the 1917 birth you are referring to? It really is best to copy the actual info into the thread.

Births Mar 1917
Thomas Llewelyn L (Thomas) Merthyr T. 11a 1315

I for one have no clue where Forden, Powys, Wales, is, so I dont know what birth you're looking at; only the registry district does it for me!

possible marriage for 1911 census if married in that area
Marriages Sep 1888
LEHAN Ellen Merthyr T. 11a 778 ***********
Rees Jane Merthyr T 11a 778
Roach Alfred Merthyr T 11a 778
THOMAS Thomas Merthyr T. 11a 778 ************

I have had GRO check llewelyn thomas born 1917 in forden powys, north wales and they assure me this is not the family I am looking for with the information given ( mothers name and childs name) and they have searched 1917 - 1918. I am told by one of the family that this child was born out of wedlock and died before the age of 10. They also have a photograph of the child. I have also contacted the local church in forden who have checked their records and llewellyn thomas cannot be found. So I have sort of eliminated him at this time.
On searching on ancestory it comes up with the family head thomas R. thomas, wife ellen and daughter ellen ann. I was not sure this was the family indicated by Jan smith above.
My grandmothers marriage certificate which I do have indicates she was 29 and my grandfather 31 however I know there is a discrepancy with my grandfathers birth (william phillips - born in barbados) as I have his baptism certificate indicating he was born in 1880 which makes him 41 and on the marriage certificate it indicates 37, so obviously I suspect for some reason their true ages were not given.
GRO has checked for my grandmothers birth between 1891 - 1894 and again they found nothing relevant to this family. Therefore it is possible my grandmother was born later than that year.
From what I can remember my grandmother telling me is that she had over 20 children in all many of them died at childbirth and many were twins. The children that survived (11)the first one being born 1918 and the last one being born in 1934. Llewelyn was one of the children I was not aware of. Obviously there were a few born out of wedlock but only llewelyn carried her single name. I am told my grandfather lived with the family prior to them getting married (william Phillips and annie ellen thomas).
According to ancestory thomas R thomas died in 1927 in pontypridd, south wales, married ellen mary mathias in 1892, south wales. The 1901 census indicates family as thomas r thomas 1866, ellen thomas 1865 (both born in north wales)and ellen ann thomas 1896(born in south wales). As the names are not consistent and only knew my grandmother as annie ellen this is where I am totally confused whether I am chasing the right family. The family that jan has mentioned has annie ellen in 1901. I know that my great grandparent (thomas thomas and Ellen died in trethomas, south wales - how do I know the registration district for that area?
My grandmothers second marriage did not eventuate until 1965 and I am assuming that it would have been family members who witnessed it as they were quite elderly at this stage. So I believe the witnesses to be with the surname phillips.
This may be quite confusing so I hope you can make some sense out of everything. Is there any other avenue for me to confirm or deny some of this information. My grandmother always celebrated her dob 23rd december but always said she didnt know what her dob was.?? Can you help in what direction I should take next.

Ruth, it's virtually incomprehensible to an outsider.

"My grandmothers second marriage did not eventuate until 1965 and I am assuming that it would have been family members who witnessed it as they were quite elderly at this stage. So I believe the witnesses to be with the surname phillips."

"Did not eventuate"?! I take that to mean your grandmother married the second time in 1965! And it really isn't relevant what you *believe* about who the witnesses were, etc.! unless your belief is based on the *facts* as shown on the certificate! Is it?? Agreed, witnesses at that late date may not be useful, but one really just doesn't *assume*.

You also don't know what age your grandmother states on that certificate, and *that* could be well worth knowing. Unlike her death record, her marriage certificate contains info that *she gave*.


This is the marriage? It would help So Much if you would just give these Facts:

Name: Annie E Phillips
Spouse: Henry Edmunds
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1965
Registration district: East Glamorgan
Registration county (inferred): Glamorganshire
Volume Number: 8b
Page Number: 660 (it says 650 for Henry at Ancestry so the image needs checking)

Is this her death?

Name: Anne Ellen Edmunds
Birth Date: 23 Dec 1897
Death Registration Month/Year: 1973
Registration district: Cardiff
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 8b
Page: 999



"My grandmothers marriage certificate which I do have indicates she was 29 and my grandfather *31* however I know there is a discrepancy with my grandfathers birth (william phillips - born in barbados) as I have his baptism certificate indicating he was born in 1880 which makes him 41 and on the marriage certificate it indicates *37*"

So ... does the certificate say he is *31* or *37*?? Just to refresh memory:

Marriages Jun 1921
Phillips William Thomas Newport M 11a 279
Thomas Annie E Phillips Newport M. 11a 279

You have his baptism certificate -- from Barbados? or was he baptised in England? Are you certain it's the right person (e.g. is it an original document)?

So in 1921 he would have been ~40 if the baptism certificate is good.

What about his death? When / where did he die / what birth info does it give? ... 1961, from material on page 1 ... a gazillion William Phillips-s died in 1961. In the same place as she remarried? Is this it?

Name: William Phillips
Death Registration Month/Year: 1961
Age at death (estimated): 81 = dob c1880
Registration district: East Glamorgan
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 8b
Page: 241


These are the Philips-s in 1911 born in Barbados - are they connected?

PHILLIPS ANNIE MILLICENT 1869 42 Croydon Surrey
PHILLIPS CYRIL HAMILTON 1873 38 Croydon Surrey
PHILLIPS GEOFFREY HAMILTON 1900 11 Croydon Surrey
PHILLIPS THERESA ANNE 1866 45 Portsmouth Hampshire

There are a few different ones in 1901, in Richmond, Portsmouth, Alverstoke, and West Ham, but no William.

Was he in England/Wales in 1911, do you know?


So the conflict regarding your grandmother is:

- at her death, her dob is given as 1897

- on her first marriage in 1921, her age is given as 29 = c1892


Your grandmother had all these numerous children, some before and some after her first marriage. Couldn't you identify some of those births? It's the *facts* about them, especially locations, that might help here.

You mention twins. There are no twins with those surnames born in the location of the marriage. Were the births somewhere other than the marriage?

I'm looking at all Phillips-Thomas births 1916 onward ... have you done this, or do you know this information? Here are probable sets of twins -

Births Mar 1918
PHILLIPS Austin Thomas Carmarthen 11a 2317
Phillips James Thomas Carmarthen 11a 2317

Births Sep 1920
Phillips David J Thomas Chepstow 11a 3
Phillips Mona Thomas Chepstow 11a 3

Births Sep 1921
Phillips Douglas Thomas Llanelly 11a 2531
Phillips Wyndham Thomas Llanelly 11a 2531

Births Sep 1922 (probably)
Phillips Kenneth J Thomas Barnstaple 5b 650
Phillips James E Thomas Barnstaple 5b 651

Births Sep 1923
Phillips Enid Thomas Wrexham 11b 398
Phillips Mary Thomas Wrexham 11b 398

Births Mar 1930 (probably) (omitting names for privacy)
Narberth 11a 1775
Narberth 11a 1774


? That's it up to the end of 1930 -- unless I've missed something, 6 sets of Phillips-Thomas twins, in 6 different places. ?


I don't know, perhaps this attempt at organization, and any answers you have, will help someone try to sort it out. It's just that your torrents of words tend to be missing actual *facts* that anyone could use to try to help.

But please try to gives straightforward info, not mixed up with questions that nobody has answers to! ;)

The c1892 birth is probably more accurate because that means she had her last child around 42. This seems to be the cut off date for all my rellies.

Seeing as Annie Ellen hyper-ovulated (had many sets of twins) it's entirely possible she had sets twins for siblings and her mother also carried the gene. This might help you identify her in a census.

Rose

Still could do with the witnesses from the marriage certs.

There's a Henry born in 1886 who died in 1969. Is this your Henry?

Seeing as he supposedly knew Annie when she was younger, it might help to track him down on a census to see his location. We need you to tell us his father's name.

Rose

I am so sorry that it sounds like I confused the issue, but I tried to make some sense of what I have but did not achieve this. However, I shall try and answer the questions you ask.
My grandmother ( annie Ellen) first marriage was with William phillips in may 1921.
The certificate states William phillips age 37, batchelor - miner. Lived at 29 William street, Trethomas, Monmouthshire. His father william henry phillips (sea pilot)
Annie ellen thomas 29 -spinster - no occupation 29 williams street, trethomas, monmouthshire. Her father thomas thomas - miner.
Witnesses: John henry davies and ellen may davies.
Vol 11A pge 279.

Annie Ellen's second marriage was to harry edmunds 8b 660 as stated above by Janey.
I shall try and find out from the older members of the family who were the witnesses for you.

Annie Ellens death is 8b 999 as stated by Janey above.

My grandfather William Phillips baptism certificate looks like it could be an original but I could be wrong. This certificate was given to me by my mother before she died. It shows Baptism solemnized in the Chapel of St Luke, in the parish of st george, in the island of barbados in 1880.
Baptized 16th august, born 13th august, childs name william, mother mary elizabeth and father phillips (no christian name). Mothers maiden name is blank, abode -Mannings Land, no rank or profession for father.
ref no's RL 2/74, P833.

My grandfather william phillips died in 1961 age 81 - registration district neath, glamorganshire in south wales Ref: 8B 423 this is the reference I had but now not sure if it is correct from my on line search.
I was informed by cardiff bereavement services that my grandfathers details were william henry phillips aged 88 years old died on 8th december, 1961.

The phillips' that you mention who were born in barbardos both in census 1911 and 1901 do not ring any bells with me I am afraid.

I do not know when william phillips came to the uk and how long he was here before annie and he got married.


The children of Annie Ellen & William that I am aware of are as follows:
Oldest - youngest

Nellie Phillips ?1917 - 1997 born in south wales (cannot be sure of date)
William Henry Phillips 1918 - 2001 born in Pontypridd, glamorgan, south wales
Mary Virginia Phillips 1919 - 2005 born in aberdare, merthyr, south wales
Edward St Phillips 1926 - born Newport , glamorgan, south wales
Joseph J phillips 1927 - born Newport, glamorgan, south wales
Megan Phillips 1928 - Newport, glamorganshire, south wales
Reginal Phillips 1930 - Newport, glamorganshire, south wales
Idris Phillips 1932 - Newport, glamorganshire, south wales
thomas phillips 1933 -Pontypridd, glamorganshire, south wales
Desmond phillips 1933 - 1999 south wales ? date
aneurin phillips 1934 - Senghenydd, nr caerphilly, glamorganshire, south wales.
These are the dates of birth the family have given me but have not been able to find some of these on line.

I mentioned twins but no names were ever given to me as they died at birth.

I can mention the names you raise with my younger uncle and ask him if he recognises anything but I am really unsure as far as that information goes. .

I think I have answered most of the questions you asked so await your next message.

I wasn't promising that I (or anybody else) would be able to come up with anything, mind! Just that having the info sorted in the thread would be really helpful. Your last post has done that quite well. My only concern is the personal info about the later-born children who may be still living. Maybe we can leave it here for a little bit and you can delete it later.

Is it possible that Annie Ellen and William were estranged and the later couple of children may not have been his children? It doesn't sound likely, just wondered.

I suppose there might have been a twin to one or more of those births with the twin having died at birth? The twin gene can actually come from either side -- the tendency to double-ovulate can be passed on from father to daughter.

You have a remaining contradiction in your post.

Name: William Phillips
Death Registration Month/Year: 1961
Age at death (estimated): 81
Registration district: Neath
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 8b
Page: 423

but you say that bereavement services told you age 88.


I'm afraid I'm getting ready to skip town for a week, but hopefully someone else will be able to take a fresh look now!