Find Ancestors

Piper, of course, I'm usually a little better at old handwriting.

No, I was only looking at her because she was supposedly named Rich*. Now that she isn't, she's out.

Yeah. I'd get the birth certificate for Albert Richer. ;)

Just to let you know that I've ordered the birth cert of Albert Richer & will report back next week as soon as I receive it

Thank you again, Sue

We've cracked it, I think!!!! You are all so clever!!!!

Certificates arrived this morning - the birth cert for Albert Richer may or may not be the correct one. Its details are:

Albert Edward Richer 29th August 1874
Parents: Eliza Ellen Richer formerly Holland & Albert Richer
Address: 34 Church Street, Deptford
Father's occupation: Boiler Maker

At first, I thought that this was the wrong cert but what I didn't tell you was that I also ordered the death certs for Robert Barnard (1910) & Ellen Barnard (1921)

The first one I opened was Robert's, details are:

Robert Francis Barnard, age 73
1st February 1910
Occupation: General Labourer
Address: 26 Pender Street, Deptford
Informant: Ellen Barnard, Daughter in law (this is Ellen Marsland, Albert's wife)
Address of Informant: 10 Pender Street, Deptford

Now I know that this is correct cert because I have Albert, Ellen & children living in 10 Pender Street in the 1911 census!!

Next cert was Ellen's death in 1921, details:

17th March 1921 @ 48 Vanbrugh Hill
Age 76
Address: 31 Edward Street, Deptford
Widow of Robert Barnard (a cattle boat cleaner - classy job!!)
Informant: Ellen Barnard of 10 Pender Street
- so it must be Albert's wife Ellen because its 10 Pender Street again!!!

Then under informant's name it says 'causing the body to be buried', what does that mean??

Then - now, Evie Beavie sit down & get ready for this .............................

On the side there is a note that says ' The Husband of the informant was adopted by the deceased and took her surname' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yippee!!!!!!!!

So, Ellen & presumably Robert, adopted Albert !!!!!!

Maybe, therefore, the birth cert for Albert Richer is his? I guess I need to see if his parents - Eliza & Albert Richer died, do you agree?

I haven't had time to look yet because the grandchildren are here today & they're making cakes - say no more!!!!! Once my kitchen has been tidied up a bit, I'll have a look for the deaths!!!

A massive big thank you for pointing me in the right direction

I'll be back later, Sue xx

well done sue!
going away for a few days but will pop in sometime to see how it goes
viv

What a stroke of luck -- a death certificate that actually tells you something above and beyond!

So this makes the second Barnard descendant I have sorted out into being not a Barnard descendant at all. ;)

(The other was from a family in Bristol in 1841 that I was desperately hoping was my own Barnards, i.e. possibly the mother of my grx2 grandparent in that line, and her other children. I found a descendant of one of the children here at GR! Except, when I worked my special magic, I determined that her gr-grfather wasn't the son of her Barnard, he was the son of the Barnard's wife born before their marriage. Hurray, no family for me ...)

You start the hunt for those potential parents when you get a chance now.

I couldn't resist.

The mother of that Albert Richer was actually Eliza Allen Richer, and sure enough, she died very shortly after he was born.

I think the note about burial and the reason for stating the relationship could be that there was a question asked about relationship, for releasing the body, and Ellen gave the whole explanation, which resulted in her possibly not being next of kin, so a notation was added as to who she was and the purpose for which the body was released.

There's an old common law saying: "there is no property in a dead body". Nobody owns it or has rights in it, but next of kin have an obligation to dispose of a body in a proper manner and are entitled to decide that manner. So the notations could be to establish that she was next of kin and was going to fulfil the obligation.

I've been having a look as well & what do you think of this EvieBeavie? I need to ask because I think I may a bit biased as I want it to be my Albert!!!!

Sure enough, Eliza Allen Richer died in Greenwich (probably Deptford) in
March Q 1875

1871 census in Camberwell shows
Albert Richer age 28 Labourer Born Rotherhithe
Eliza Richer age 30 Dressmaker Born Somers Town, Middsx
Helena Richer age 6 months Born Brixton

Then Eliza could've had Albert in 1874 & a couple of months later she died.

Albert was adopted by Ellen & Robert, they had no children of their own.

1881 - Gloucester!!
Albert Richer age 38 Widow a painter Born Rotherhithe
Eleanor Richer age 10 Daughter Born Herne Hill
Edward Albert Richer age 14 Nephew Born Poplar

First of all I thought could Edward Albert be my Albert but he wouldn't be 14, he'd be 6. So I found the birth of Edward Albert in Poplar in June Q 1866 & then found him in 1871 census -

William Richer age 35 Labourer Born Rotherhithe
Mary Richer age 37 Wife Born Ipswich
Edward A Richer age 4 Son Born Poplar
Mary A Richer age 2 Daughter Born Gloucester

Was William the brother of Albert (Senior)? On checking the 1851 census in Rotherhithe, it would seem so -

Elizabeth Richer Widow age 56 Licensed Victualler B Hepworth, Suffolk
William Richer Son age 15 Born Rotherhithe
Francis Richer Son age 12 Born Rotherhithe
Charles Richer Son age 11 Born Rotherhithe
Albert Richer Son age 8 Born Rotherhithe
William Tester Nephew age 18 Born Pimlico

Did Albert move to Gloucester with his daughter Eleanor when his wife died as his brother William was already living there but maybe he couldn't cope with a tiny baby & let Ellen & Robert adopt him?

Did William & Mary die (I can't find their deaths) and so Albert had his nephew live with him. His niece, Mary Ann, was a 12 year old servant in Gloucester in 1881 census.

I don't suppose I will ever be able to confirm that Albert Richer, son of Eliza & Albert is mine will I? But everything does point that way doesn't it?

Maybe I should stop researching Barnard line now & switch to Richer & Holland??

I'd be really interested to hear what you all think?

EvieBeavie - thanks for explanation about the 'burying the body' and, of course, I can see why Ellen had to explain how she was next of kin. Good job she did really cos it certainly helped me!! Thank you so much

Ooops, nearly forgot .......

Marriage in Greenwich Dec Q 1869
Albert Richer
Eliza Allen Holland .....................

Sorry to post on here again but I need to sound this out with you.......

1871 Census - Albert, Eliza & Helena Richer (Albert age 28 & born Rotherhithe)

1875 - Eliza Allen Richer died

1881 census - Albert & Eleanor (+ nephew) in Gloucester (Albert age 38 & born Rotherhithe)

1891 Census - Albert & Eleanor in Gloucester (Albert age 48 & born Rotherhithe)

1898 - Eleanor Richer married Albert Williams in Merthyr Tydfil
(another Albert!!!)

1901 Census - Albert, Eleanor Williams & children living in Merthyr Tydfil with Albert Richer age 58 born Rotherhithe

How about if I buy Eleanor's birth certificate to check if her parents are the same as Albert's ie Eliza nee Holland? If the parents are the same then it would really point to Albert senior giving baby Albert away wouldn't it?

Aha. I looked at the household in Gloucester in 1881 but hadn't gone any farther with it ... because the new printer arrived and had to take 2 hours to install ...

Yes, that does indeed look like your Albert Sr, husband of Eliza Allen Holland (I'd found that marriage and then her death).

The sequence looks pretty solid. And yes, the birth cert for daughter Eleanor would be a clincher as to that relationship.

The link is still missing, of course. But the fact that your Albert married as ... what was it, Richie? him probably only ever have heard it and never seen it; he was an infant when he was taken in by the Barnards ... and the explanation on the death cert for Ellen Barnard wife of Robert, well, it's as close as a lot of us get. ;)

Now stop asking me -- Viv is the one who found that marriage!

And we still have no idea of what the connection between the Barnard couple and the Richer couple was. (I just had wild theories about it.)

There might have been no connection. Albert might have simply been placed in an institution, and they took him from there.

If we could only figure out who Ellen Barnard "wife" of Robert was ...

Is this just a red herring?

Marriage June Q 1880 in St Saviour

Robert Barnard & Sarah Ann HOLLAND!!!

HI Sue

I dont have a ALbert William Barnard on my tree, but I have had the same problems. I have been researching BURNARD and found a lot of them listed as BERNARD and BARNARD. It might be worth you trying the same.

Happy Hunting

ALison

Hi Alison -- just to assure you it's all been tried! These Barnards showed up as Bornick in one transcription. In fact, with surnames so often mistranscribed but given names a little harder for transcribers to mess up, it's often best to search by given name with date and place of birth and parent's/spouse's given name only. I think that's how two of us found the Bornicks.

I have some elusive Barnards in my tree, and you'll find corrections all over Ancestry for Barnards who are unrelated to mine, but whom I've encountered and fixed in my searches for my own. ;)

And Sue -- you do need to get cracking on making corrections to those census records at Ancestry. You never know who might see them some day and get in touch. I've had two long-lost distant cousins with all sorts of interesting info contact me through those correction links.

Marriage June Q 1880 in St Saviour
Robert Barnard & Sarah Ann HOLLAND


Hmm. Eliza Allen Holland Richer was already dead, and Robert Barnard was already (at least in the 1881 census) living with Ellen "?" In 1871 in fact, as Bornick at Ancestry.

FreeBMD actually has a couple of dozen Barnard-Holland marriages. And somewhat oddly, Robert is a more common name among Barnards than among the general population in the 19th century.

This looks like that couple in 1881:

Name: Robert Barnard
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah - born Southwark c1859
Gender: Male
Where born: Southwark, Surrey, England

with daughter Alice.


This looks like her household in 1861 in Southwark St John Horsleydown:

Henry Holland 27
Jane Holland 26
Susan J Holland 11
Sarah A Holland 2

Eliza Allen Holland Richer was born c1841, per the 1871 census.

I'd bet on this being her in 1861:

Name: Eliza Holland
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Female
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Greenwich St Alphege
County/Island: Kent
Registration district: Greenwich

Elizabeth Holland 50
Eliza Holland 20
Elizabeth Holland 18
George Holland 13


No likely connection appearing.

Just to let you know that I've ordered the birth cert for Eleanor Richer & also the death cert for Eliza Allen Richer - fingers crossed that they shed some more light for us.

EvieBeavie - I can't put corrections on Ancestry as I don't have membership with them, I subscribe to The Genealogist - or do you not need to be a member to correct errors? I've corrected them on The Genealogist website.

That certainly looks like Eliza in 1861, I too had found that entry but I cannot find the family in 1851 or 1841!!!!

I think that Holland/Barnard marriage was a coincidence & I didn't realise that there were so many Holland/Barnard marriages taking place.

I wish I could find Robert Barnard & Ellen's marriage - there are a couple of possibles, I may need to just try them both. They didn't have any children of their own, maybe they couldn't. Maybe Albert & Eliza Richer were friends or neighbours & when Eliza died, they adopted baby Albert. If thats the case, then there will be no family connection to find?

Sue -- get yourself a nice anonymous email account at www.gmail.com -- something like

[email protected]

;) -- and send it to me, and when I get some moments I'll add corrections for you with the email address. Good that you've done it on the other site. Ancestry may get more traffic, though.

Evie Beavie - I've sent you a pm

I'll get to it tomorrow if I get a few minutes. Poke me Wednesday evening if I haven't reported back!

Oh -- next thing is to make that your address for contacts from GR. That way, if you get email notification of PMs, they'll all be stuck away there and you can just delete or archive them en masse. And use it for genealogy correspondence generally -- that way you're not giving out your "official" email, and people will recognize you from the addy!