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I wonder if some kind soul would be good enough to have a look at this for me & maybe fresh eyes would see something that I am missing?

I know for certain Ellen Barnard was born in Greenwich/Deptford in 1912 & that she had older siblings. Her father was Albert William Barnard & her mother was Ellen formerley Marsland. I have a copy of her birth certificate.

I have found Albert (age 28) & Ellen (age 24) in Deptford in 1901 census with their 2 young daughters - Margaret age 3 & Emily (who I believe was actually Beatrice Emily) age 1. All are down as being born in Deptford.

In the same house is Robert & Ellen Barnard age 71 & 60 who I believe were Albert's parents as they were living at the same address in 1891 with Albert age 16 as their son but no other children.

Now the problems begin ............ I cannot find Albert William Barnard's birth record, or Albert & Ellen's marriage, or any entry for Albert, Robert or Ellen (Albert's mother) in any census prior to 1891 - apart from a Robert age 19 living with his widowed mother Sarah, in Deptford in 1851.

Does anyone have any ideas please, I'm going boss eyed looking at so many different records? Thank you, Sue

possible marriage

Marriages Dec 1897 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JONES Henry Samuel St. Olave 1d 621
Marsland Ellen St. Olave 1d 621 <<<<<<<<<,
RICHIE Albert Bernard St. Olave 1d 621 <<<<<<<<<
SANDERSON Daisy Beatrice St. Olave 1d 621

vivienne

I saw that Vivienne but why would he call himself Richie?
Also, I could find no trace of an Albert Richie in any census!
Very strange!!!

Just in case anyone finds anything else, I just wanted to say that I've got to leave the computer for an hour but will check back at 10pm.
Thank you if you do look

just for ref

Name: Albert Barnard
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Robert
Mother's Name: Ellery
Gender: Male
Where born: Deptford, Kent, England

Civil Parish: St Paul Deptford
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub registration district: St Paul Deptford
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Barnard 57
Ellery Barnard 49
Albert Barnard 16
William Smith 59
Elizabeth Smith 47


vivienne

Think I've found Robert and Ellen in 1871. The writing isn't very good but I think it could be Barnard - has been indexed as Bornick. Ages are given as 39 and 28 so the 11 year gap is there. They are born and living in Deptford. Address looks like Hughes Fields.

Janice

this one janice?
well done!
certainly looks like barnard

Name: Ellen Bornick
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert
Gender: Female
Where born: Deptford, Kent, England
Civil Parish: St Nicholas Deptford
Ecclesiastical parish: St Nicholas
Town: Deptford
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Greenwich
Sub registration district: St Nicholas Deptford
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 137
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Bornick 39
Ellen Bornick 28

and roberts a labourer same as 91.
ruddy anc is going slow on me AGAIN.
still working on 81
vivienne

Noswaith da Vivienne,

I'm having no luck with any of them in the 1881 - have tried Ancestry version and Familysearch. Nothing :-(

Janice

Hi, I'm back - thanks to Vivienne & Janice for your help.

Well done Janice, I would never have found that in 1871.

I thought that Hughes Field Deptford rung a bell - I have Ellen Marsland's family (her father, Edward & mother, Paulina, & 8 children) living there in 1881 - their daughter Ellen Marsland (who married Albert Barnard) is age 5. So they must've been neighbours but where is Albert age 6?

The plot thickens!! Once again, thanks for your time & help, Sue x

noswaith i ti hefyd janice

I cant see them either

glad you said about f/s as i was just going there,saved me a trip!

fmp maybe?
vivienne

well sue
it beats me where they are in 81,maybe a search round the images of hughs fields if thats where the inlaws still were in 81

may be worth a try for that marriage cert with ellens fathers details for ref?
only one way to see whats on it.

sorry not to have been more help but janice did ,da iawn [very good]

cant find his birth ref either .
vivienne

I know, its a right old muddle isn't it? I think I may well order that marriage cert & state only to send it if Ellen's father is Edward.

I think I need to get to London to look at Deptford PRs as maybe I could find Albert's baptism if his birth wasn't registered.

Guess it would be boring if it was too easy!!!

Thanks again to you both & noswaith :-) whatever that means :-)

Sue x

Noswaith da, Sue (means good evening)

There's a death JFM 1910 Greenwich - which is the right district for Deptford - of a Robert Francis Barnard (FreeBMD) and there's a christening of a Robert Francis Barnard in 1831 at St Nicholas, Deptford (IGI). Given that his age is fairly flexible in the censuses,I think this is your Robert. What do you think?
Robert's parents are Edmund and Sarah - if it's the right Robert.
Possible death for Ellen in 1921. Wonder if they were buried at Hither Green Cemetery - that's not far from me.

Janice

PS Why didn't you post this a week sooner - I could have gone up to the LMA, but it's back to work tomorrow :-(

Janice - thats so nice of you to say you would've gone to LMA last week for me, thanks. I'm back to work tomorrow as well!!

I had found the death of Robert Francis Barnard in 1910 but hadn't seen the baptism on IGI, but it certainly looks correct as I have him in 1851 census in Deptford living with his widowed mother - Sarah.

And I've learnt to say 'good evening' in what I'm guessing is Welsh?

Sue x

Janice - I had my tonsils out in Hither Green hospital when I was 8 years old!!!

Correct. Da iawn (Vivienne taught you that further up the page)

Oops - we posted at the same time and now it doesn't make sense lol!

and now ladies its

nos da / goodnight

vivienne

p,s will try again for 1881 when ive had some beauty sleep

as though i need beauty sleep!!!

1881


Name: Albert Burlurd
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Robert
Mother's Name: Eliza
Where born: Deptford, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Deptford St Nicholas
County/Island: London
Street address: 2 Trinity Place
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Greenwich

Robert Burlurd 55 - dock labourer, born Deptford
Eliza Burlurd 41 - born Deptford
Albert Burlurd 6


It looks like BARLARD to me.

The parents' ages are off, the mother's name is off, but it's a possibility.

I wonder whether Ellen wasn't just a bit of a bad girl.

Or perhaps more likely, a girl taken advantage of.


1901:


Name: Albert Richie
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relation: Carperters Crew (Crew)
Where born: Newcastle, Northumberland, England
Condition as to marriage: Married

Civil Parish: Vessels
Town: Gibraltar
County/Island: Royal Navy
Country: England


That Richie-Marsland marriage could explain why there is no Barnard-Marsland marriage to be found. Richie's name was bizarrely coincidental only?