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Hi Michelle,

I am trying to find out any information on Laura Wates or Waites born 1889 in Easington, Co. Durham. She married twice and I know her second husband was called Monkhouse but that's all I know. Anything would be appreciated.

Christine

Tina

Always hard when you have a seaman for an ancestor!your can't always find them with their wives on the census records and this is not the 1st case where you do not see them at all through all the records.Well we are left with 2 poss marriages and the children.I looked at the children and saw a submitted record for 1 of them as the mother being Eliza Jennings.Being submitted it is not extracted from the parish records and has been added by a member of the public.I looked at the 1851 however and tend to agree that it is Eliza Jennings.Below is Eliza on the 1851

1851 England Census
about Eliza Jennings
Name: Eliza Jennings
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Robert
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Female
Where born: Latchingdon, Essex, England

Civil Parish: Southminster
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Maldon
Sub registration district: Southminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 6a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 129
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Jennings 37
Mary Jennings 39
Robert Jennings 17
Eliza Jennings 14
Sarah Ann Jennings 12
Charles Jennings 2
William Mells 45
William Benoer 46
William Everett 32
Benjamin Burrows 23


Living in the Maldon district.So looks good.The only way to know 100% is to obtain the birth cert of 1 of their children.This would list her maiden name.

Michelle

Thanks for your help, as this is what I had thought. It looks like they may have been a little vague through the ages on how old they were as it seems to vary by about 4 years!
Thanks
Tina

Christine

The nearest match to Laura Wates born in Easington in 1889 is this 1

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Laura Wates
Name: Laura Wates
Year of Registration: 1895
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Easington
County: Durham
Volume: 10a
Page: 473 (click to see others on page)

nearest under Waites are these 2

Name Year of Registration Quarter of Registration District County View Image Order Record
View Record

Preview
Name: Laura Waites
Year of Registration: 1892
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Stockton
County: Durham, Yorkshire - North Riding
Volume: 10a

Take a look at the picture to see even more.

See more

Laura Waites 1892 Apr-May-Jun Stockton Durham, Yorkshire - North Riding
View Record

Laura Waites 1889 Apr-May-Jun Halifax Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire


So are you certain re birthyear?Maybe your got her birthyear from a death cert?These aren't always accurate.Really relies on the person who registers the death knowing the birthyear 100%,


Looking at other info on the Laura 1895 above here is a poss 1st marriage

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1983
about Laura Wates
Name: Laura Wates
Year of Registration: 1914
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's Surname: Curtis
District: Easington
County: Durham
Volume: 10a
Page: 868 (click to see others on page)

Name Year of Registration Spouse's Surname District County View Image Order Record
View Record
Joseph S Curtis 1914 Wates Easington Durham

Laura Wates 1914 Curtis Easington Durham

Couldn't see children to this marriage after 1916.I then looked for Monkhouse-Wates births and found these.

England & Wales, Birth Index: 1916-2005
about William Monkhouse
Name: William Monkhouse
Mother's Maiden Surname: Wates
Date of Registration: Jan Feb Mar 1923
Registration district: Easington
Registration county: Durham
Volume Number: 10a
Page Number: 918 (click to see others on page)

England & Wales, Birth Index: 1916-2005
about Laura Monkhouse
Name: Laura Monkhouse
Mother's Maiden Surname: Wates
Date of Registration: Jul Aug Sep 1927
Registration district: Easington
Registration county: Durham
Volume Number: 10a
Page Number: 762 (click to see others on page)

England & Wales, Birth Index: 1916-2005
about Mary J Monkhouse
Name: Mary J Monkhouse
Mother's Maiden Surname: Wates
Date of Registration: Apr May Jun 1918
Registration district: Easington
Registration county: Durham
Volume Number: 10a
Page Number: 851 (click to see others on page)

I think Laura married Joseph Short Curtis.He served in the 1st World War,and died in 1916, 2 years after they married

UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919
about Joseph Short Curtis
Name: Joseph Short Curtis
Birth Place: Murton, CO. Durham
Residence: Sunderland
Death Date: 29 Jan 1916
Enlistment Location: Boldon Colliery
Rank: L/Sergeant
Regiment: Durham Light Infantry
Battalion: 19th Battalion.
Number: 19/716
Type of Casualty: Died
Theater of War: Brough - Sic

On this record below he is listed as married on the image.

British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
about Joseph Short Curtis
Name: Joseph Short Curtis
Age: 26
Birth Year: abt 1889
Residence : 15 Gladstone Terrace, Boldon Colliery
Regiment Name: Durham Light Infantry
Regiment Number: 716
Document Year: 1915
Number of Images: 43

As yet i cannot see a 2nd marriage?It could be that Monkhouse and Wates did not marry?

Do you know of any of the children's names i found?The only way to know for certain if Laura is their mother is to obtain 1 of the certs.

Tina

Birthages were not always accurate on the census records.This is why we see the abt before the birthyear.These days we know when our birthday is and we celebrate it and know when we were born but in those days it was very different and birthdays and ages were not so important as they are in our society.So i wouldn't worry too much about that but to be certain obtain 1 of the children's birth certs.

Michelle

Hi Michelle,

Yes you have found her. I was told that her first marriage was possibly Curtis and I came to the same conclusion that maybe she didn't marry Monkhouse. I have come across a Laura Monkhouse born 1927 so it looks like this is it. This lady has been elusive. Thanks very much for your help.

Christine

Thanks for your help, I will do that. Are you able to get the reference numbers for birth certificates?
If so I would like to find Florence Grace Newman born 1878 maldon essex she may have had a twin Edith. If you are able to help great if not I will keep looking! Thanks Tina

Edna

This is the marriage record and it does not state Alice's father's name?

England & Wales Marriages, 1538-1940
about Alice Hannah Ramsbottom
Name: Alice Hannah Ramsbottom
Gender: Female
Birth Date: abt 1868
Age: 18
Spouse's Name: John Sagar
Spouse's Age: 37
Spouse's Father's Name: Hugh Sagar
Marriage Date: 9 Aug 1886
Marriage Place: Habergham Eaves, Lancashire, England

Normally the record shows both fathers?

I will look for more.

Tina

here you go

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Florence Grace Newman
Name: Florence Grace Newman
Year of Registration: 1878
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Maldon (1837-1972)
County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 325 (click to see others on page)

Hi Michelle
Thanks for the info on the Rook family. Just taken it off now.
Elaine.

Thanks for that
Tina

Edna

With regards to birth records.Prior to 1875 it was not compulsory to register a birth so there is always the poss that Alice's birth was not registered.

Looking at Elizabeth Ramsbottom and her birthplace on the 1851-61 she looks to be unmarried and a Servant

1851 England Census
about Elizabeth Ramsbottom
Name: Elizabeth Ramsbottom
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Huncoat, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Burnley
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Burnley
Sub registration district: Burnley
ED, institution, or vessel: 6j
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 2
Household Members: Name Age
George Rawcliffe 40
James Rawcliffe 20
Wm Rawcliffe 17
Mary Stephenson 33
Mary Laugthorn 23
Elizabeth Ramsbottom 21
Samuel Broaden 45

1861 England Census
about Elizabeth Ramsbottom
Name: Elizabeth Ramsbottom
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Mencoat, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Burnley
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Burnley
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Burnley
Sub registration district: Burnley
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Ferner Wilkinson 46
Angelina Wilkinson 54
William Henry Wilkinson 13
Elizabeth Ramsbottom 27

I believe that Joshua had been married before to a Sarah Jagger nee Dickenson.There is a marriage of the couple in 1860.Sarah's husband John died in 1858 a year after George Jagger was born.On the 1861 census the stepchildren of Joshua Heap are listed as Gadhard which is an error i believe cos i have traced their mother Sarah back to previous census and found her with the 2 boys and her husband John and 2 other children.

Will continue....

Edna

I believe that Sarah the 1st wife of Joshua died in 1862

Here is the marriage of Sarah and Joshua

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1983
about Joshua Heap
Name: Joshua Heap
Year of Registration: 1860
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Burnley
County: Lancashire, Yorkshire - West Riding
Volume: 8e
Page: 314 (click to see others on page)

Name Year of Registration Spouse's Surname District County View Image Order Record
View Record
Joshua Heap 1860 Burnley Lancashire, Yorkshire - West Riding

Sarah Jagger 1860 Burnley Lancashire, Yorkshire - West Riding


Here is the death i believe of Sarah two years after marriage and i believe no children were born to this marriage.Maybe Sarah died in childbirth?

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1983
about Sarah Heap
Name: Sarah Heap
Year of Registration: 1862
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Burnley
County: Lancashire, Yorkshire - West Riding
Volume: 8e
Page: 81 (click to see others on page)

So we now have Joshua as a Widow and we have already seen Elizabeth Ramsbottom unmarried on the 1851-61 census records.

Alice is down on the census records as born in Burnley in 1868 although i think the 1901 stated 1864?As i already mentioned births around this time were not compulsory to register.

What i did want to ask you was on the marriage cert you listed that father was deceased.Was his name listed as Joshua?

We have 2 scenario's

1 that Elizabeth had Alice out of wedlock and then met Joshua who took her on as his own.

2 that Joshua was Alice's father but she was registered as Ramsbottom cos the couple never married.

I have looked online at Parish records and i can see no marriage listed between the couple.I'm sorry it looks like they did not marry but appeared as so in census records and maybe even to the church?

There is an 1868 Blackburn Alice but i belive this is her

1871 England Census
about Alice Ramsbottom
Name: Alice Ramsbottom
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Female
Where born: Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Blackburn
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Blackburn
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Blackburn
Sub registration district: Blackburn
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 104
Household Members: Name Age
John Ramsbottom 43
Sarah Ramsbottom 34
Sarah E Ramsbottom 13
John Ramsbottom 8
Alice Ramsbottom 3
Robert Ramsbottom 9 months
James Dixon 40
Sarah Dixon 38

There is also another Alice who also had a mother Elizabeth and at 1st glance i thought this was your Alice before i looked into it further.This Alice also had a father who was deceased and his name was Robert.This Elizabeth Ramsbottom was nee Rothwell and she is staying as a lodger with family on this 1871

1871 England Census
about Alice Ramsbottom
Name: Alice Ramsbottom
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Female
Where born: Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Church
Ecclesiastical parish: Church Kirk
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Blackburn
Sub registration district: Oswaldtwistle
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 200
Household Members: Name Age
James Rothwell 59
James Rothwell 19
Elizabeth Ramsbottom 35
James Ramsbottom 11
Grace Ramsbottom 9
Ellen Ramsbottom 7
Rebecca Ramsbottom 4
Alice Ramsbottom 3

The Elizabeth on here though is younger than your Elizabeth and birthplace is different

1871 England Census
about Elizabeth Ramsbottom
Name: Elizabeth Ramsbottom
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Greenhorarth, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Church
Ecclesiastical parish: Church Kirk
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Blackburn
Sub registration district: Oswaldtwistle
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 200
Household Members: Name Age
James Rothwell 59
James Rothwell 19
Elizabeth Ramsbottom 35
James Ramsbottom 11
Grace Ramsbottom 9
Ellen Ramsbottom 7
Rebecca Ramsbottom 4
Alice Ramsbottom 3

Continue....

Edna

So couple of questions

1 Who was father listed as on the marriage cert of Alice and John Sagar and who were the witnesses?

2 What was the details on Elizabeth's death record?


I think its very interesting that Elizabeth died as Ramsbottom makes me think even more that she never married otherwise she would have been registered as Elizabeth Heap.Maybe they did not marry cos they had a child out of wedlock?

The parish marriage record is on p 107 of my thread and does not state a father of Alice.

Michelle

Hi Michelle
Tonight I am looking for some marrage details, can you help?
If so the details are.
William H Nicholls born Harefield Middlesex 1842
married 1860ish 5 years each side!
Married to Mary Unknown surname born rickmansworth 1843

Samuel Nicholls born harefield Middlesex 1817
Married 1839 3 years each way!
Louisa Unknown born harefield 1821

Thanks if you can help
Tina

Tina

This looks like William's marriage to Mary

Name Year of Registration Spouse's Surname District County View Image Order Record
View Record
Mary Maria Child 1864 Uxbridge Middlesex

William Henry Nicholls 1864 Uxbridge Middlesex

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1983
about William Henry Nicholls
Name: William Henry Nicholls
Year of Registration: 1864
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Uxbridge
County: Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 28 (click to see others on page)

and on the 1891 we see the Maria middle name

1891 England Census
about Mary Maria Nichols
Name: Mary Maria Nichols
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William
Gender: Female
Where born: Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Ruislip
Ecclesiastical parish: St Martin
Town: Eastcote
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Uxbridge
Sub registration district: Hayes
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Nichols 49
Mary Maria Nichols 48
Alice Nichols 25
Frederick Wiliam Nichols 20
Florence Nichols 17
Charles Robert Nichols 15
Maud Nichols 14
Harry Nichols 13
Fredrich Harcourt Hardman 3
Hance James Nichols 2


And here she is on the census records as Mary Child

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Mary Maria Child
Name: Mary Maria Child
Year of Registration: 1842
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Watford
County: Hertfordshire
Volume: 6
Page: 570 (click to see others on page)

1851 England Census
about Jacob Child
Name: Jacob Child
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Eliza
Gender: Male
Where born: Staundon, Hertfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Rickmansworth
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Watford
Sub registration district: Bushey
ED, institution, or vessel: 1c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 82
Household Members: Name Age
Jacob Child 35
Eliza Child 35
Thomas Child 16
Ann Child 11
Mary Child 9
John Child 6
Eli Child 3
Joseph Child 1

1851 England Census
about Eliza Child
Name: Eliza Child
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Jacob
Gender: Female
Where born: Watford, Hertfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Rickmansworth
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Watford
Sub registration district: Bushey
ED, institution, or vessel: 1c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 82
Household Members: Name Age
Jacob Child 35
Eliza Child 35
Thomas Child 16
Ann Child 11
Mary Child 9
John Child 6
Eli Child 3
Joseph Child 1

1851 England Census
about Thomas Child
Name: Thomas Child
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Jacob
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Male
Where born: Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Rickmansworth
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Watford
Sub registration district: Bushey
ED, institution, or vessel: 1c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 82
Household Members: Name Age
Jacob Child 35
Eliza Child 35
Thomas Child 16
Ann Child 11
Mary Child 9
John Child 6
Eli Child 3
Joseph Child 1

Continue....

Tina

1851 Continued...

1851 England Census
about Ann Child
Name: Ann Child
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Jacob
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Female
Where born: Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Rickmansworth
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Watford
Sub registration district: Bushey
ED, institution, or vessel: 1c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 82
Household Members: Name Age
Jacob Child 35
Eliza Child 35
Thomas Child 16
Ann Child 11
Mary Child 9
John Child 6
Eli Child 3
Joseph Child 1

1851 England Census
about Mary Child
Name: Mary Child
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Jacob
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Female
Where born: Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Rickmansworth
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Watford
Sub registration district: Bushey
ED, institution, or vessel: 1c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 82
Household Members: Name Age
Jacob Child 35
Eliza Child 35
Thomas Child 16
Ann Child 11
Mary Child 9
John Child 6
Eli Child 3
Joseph Child 1

1851 England Census
about John Child
Name: John Child
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Jacob
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Male
Where born: Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Rickmansworth
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Watford
Sub registration district: Bushey
ED, institution, or vessel: 1c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 82
Household Members: Name Age
Jacob Child 35
Eliza Child 35
Thomas Child 16
Ann Child 11
Mary Child 9
John Child 6
Eli Child 3
Joseph Child 1

1851 England Census
about Eli Child
Name: Eli Child
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Jacob
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Male
Where born: Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Rickmansworth
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Watford
Sub registration district: Bushey
ED, institution, or vessel: 1c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 82
Household Members: Name Age
Jacob Child 35
Eliza Child 35
Thomas Child 16
Ann Child 11
Mary Child 9
John Child 6
Eli Child 3
Joseph Child 1

1851 England Census
about Joseph Child
Name: Joseph Child
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Jacob
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Male
Where born: Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Rickmansworth
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Watford
Sub registration district: Bushey
ED, institution, or vessel: 1c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 82
Household Members: Name Age
Jacob Child 35
Eliza Child 35
Thomas Child 16
Ann Child 11
Mary Child 9
John Child 6
Eli Child 3
Joseph Child 1

Jacob a Carpenter Journeyman
Thomas a Ag Lab

No address listed but a the Rose and Crown was next door but 1.

Patricia

Can u give me the names to remind me and the enquiry...so many threads on here.It maybe i looked at yours and was going to return to it?Thanks.

Michelle

Hi Michelle,

Requesting a Look up in Incoming Passengers list for:

Henry Hutchison b 1861 in Mains Strathmartine, Angus
Magaret Hutchison (nee Patrick) b 1864 in Monkie Forfar Angus
Alexander Hutchison b. 04.04 1887 in St Louis Missouri USA
Harry Hutchison b 1888 in st Louis Missouri USA.

Henry & Margaret left Fife, Scotland, after their marriage in January 1887, but returned to Perth area in Scotland before the birth of their daughter Ella in June 1898.

I don't know if you will be able to find them, but apprecaite you looking in to this for me.

Thanks

Alayne

Hi Michelle

You are a star doing this for me, I have been tearing my hair out for years over this. I have a marriage cert for Alice Hannah and John Sagar and where the father's name should be it has 'jo' but this is crossed out. Elizabeth Rothwell (nee Ramsbottom) is not my Alice Hannah's mother as she married again in 1880s (I have traced her line). It is interesting the birth you found of Alice Hannah showing her parents as JOHN and SARAH and their first child was SARAH Elizabeth. That was the name that Alice Hannah and John Sagar called their first daughter. My mum has a memoriam card for the death of JOSHUA HEAP so he must tie in somewhere. Will try and find out when JOHN RAMSBOTTOM died, just maybe his wife SARAH was called SARAH ELIZABETH and she went under the name of ELIZABETH. It personally doesn't matter that possible Alice Hannah was illegitimate but I would just love to see her birth cert or baptism record (do you think she would have needed one in order to get married in church) and to confirm whether or not ELIZABETH ever married. This will enable me to trace Elizabeth's ancestors depending if she was a Ramsbottom or someone else. Again I really do appreciate all the help you are giving me. I live in NE of Scotland and rarely ever get back to Lancashire to search records.