General Chat

This democracy lark!

We were all party to the same information and each of us had an equal vote.

When the votes were counted we had chosen, of our own free will, to leave the European Union because more people voted to do so than did not.

Now, it seems, there are petitions to overturn the vote,or have another referendum.

Well,no. This is the way that was democratically chosen.

Allegedly, over a million people now regret voting to leave. They should have thought about that when they cast the vote they were democratically allowed. It was their equal share in the vote.

This was our choice, the choice of the majority, and we now have to make it work.

fat chance of that when our politicans are sqabbling like schoolboys, we should all pull together whatever what

:-(

How right you are Sharron....But....their are always those
that throw their toys out of the pram if they don't get their own way..

More positive information correctly given would have been helpful

Quite right Sharron, many people seem to think democracy means they can have whatever they want.

One of the reasons it is very difficult to introduce it to countries that are not historically democratic. A free election is sometimes followed by a backlash from those who did not get their wish.

The majority has the control, if you are in a minority you will have to go along with the majority view. No doubt we have all voted and "lost" but most of us suck it up and accept it.

Don't worry Sharron, the petitions can at most spark a debate in Parliament.

There is even one about ignoring all the others which might interest you.

I'll add this as I have just said it elsewhere

"if a 'mistake' is made at a general election, there is an opportunity to rectify it 5 years later, and because in the case of a general election there has to be a very clear percentage majority for the 'winner' or it is a hung parliament there is at least the possibility of the worst decisions being 'modified' by a coalition. That is not the case here. The result, in this instance, and imo, was based on misinformation from the out campaign...that this is so is pretty clear when those who campaigned are now saying that the information they gave was " a mistake" aka a bold faced lie. However there won't be another vote...we now have to live with the consequences."

well you are not right
fascist communist and other totalitarian tendencies are fond of referendums which back up whatever evil is the flavour of the moment
- that is why the UK has eschewed them for most of its history and rightly so.

Democracy is not a winner takes all game it has to give proper recognition to the other side and minorities. When democracies do hold referenda the it is usual to make the electorate as wide as possible and build in safeguards, usually a turnout over 50% and majority of at least 5%. The UK referendum setup was controlled by the brexiters who were responsible for the weird wording and the exclusion of the 16-18. group. On top of that the Leave agenda was nothing but lies ( for which Boris Johnson is a proven recidivist ) and the burgeoning question of what went on with the postal votes.

As it is we have what the Americans would call a shut-out with just short for half the country ( well over half of the economically active people ) mad as hell. They won't "get used to it" and go away. They will fight back and hard. The brexit, if implemented, will create never ending political chaos and financial doom. No wonder Leave are in no hurry to post s50. Wise Merkel is not pushing for it either.

The petition for a 2nd referendum has gone from zero to 3 m sigs in three days. If signups, computer crashes permitting, goes on at the present rate it will have 10-20 M sigs by the time it is debated in whatever is left of the parliament and will be impossible to ignore.

Whichever way we voted though I think we can all agree that what happens next and when is the business of the UK and not the French, Luxembourgers or anybody else. The current attitude of Junkers and the French are exactly the sort of thing which brought about the referendum in the first place.

Big Fat Lie typical of leave

Turkey is not a single nation. Leaving aside some tiny minorities it is 80% Sunni Muslim Turks and 20% Shia Muslim Kurds. Turkey, far from allowing the Kurds to practice their religion and language makes open warfare on the minority. Turkey has form too, the Armenian massacre and the expulsion of Greek Christians in the 1920s. There is no prospect of Turkey changing hence its inability to get anywhere with EU membership. Nevertheless the west needs Turkey. It is a key NATO ally and of course the lynchpin of dealing with the Syrian refugee crisis. As a sweetener a few thousand Turkish govt high ranking civil servants have been promised long term visas for travel to the EU ( no rights to work or settle ). This promise was blown up by Leave to "80 million Turks are coming". Again Cameron was asked to permanently rule out Turkish EU membership. Doing so would have blown a huge hole in vital relationships with a key country. So Cameron said the truth, not in 50 years but he couldn't say never.

and so on and on, no wonder people are getting mad as hell.

If you like Leave so much why wait just move to Norway a full farm of fascists. They have free movement for EU passport holders so you'll be ok for a while at least.

There is an assumption, I believe. that all parties can deal with information on an equal basis. This, of course, is not true or the Sun would not able to mould the view that many have of the world.

This was a referendum rather than an election so each vote had equal status and was to make a choice in it's own right rather than to choose a group to represent it's requirements.

The information may have been wrong but it was available in it's incorrect form to everybody as was all other information.

I see that the main petition was started by a Leave supporter before the vote, when he wanted it to be harder for Remain to win outright.

It is also being investigated for fraud as many signatories are from outside the UK.

I think this referendum might be a huge set-back for those who want proportional representation in this country.

I second that, Rose, and I'm sure that a goodly proportion of who voted out are feeling pretty stupid now it is slowly dawning on them they were taken for a ride by the lies from the leave campaigners.

Ah, yes. But you are a grown up aren't you?

Like it or not, the vote was Democratic. To overrule this is Dictatorship and not right!!!

I am not feeling stupid either and no I do not live in the past :-|. I voted out for my own reasons

it wasn't democratic; a big chunk of postal votes are missing, there has been fiddling with the ballot boxes in the Midlands, 16-18 denied the vote, campaign Leave nothing but out and out porkies.

For democracy to work electors need something reasoably close to the truth not a bunch of chancers and dodgy newspapers.

It is just not realistic to expect the working part of the country which brings in the bacon from abroad to accept what amounts to a coup from the crinklies.

The House of Parliament committee which deals with fraud on petitions has removed about 80 000 sigs of the > 3M sigs so far - probably less fraud than the referendum itself. Many polling stations were festooned with UKIP regalia.

Whatever happens next the demise of the British rust belt will go on.
Tough, as you say.

We hear all this every time there is an election and people don't get what they want.

Under TEU Article 50 has to be invoked before we can leave.
As Cameron has resigned, this would be the responsibility of his successor - and that person hasn't been put in place yet.

Although Article 50 is a template for those wishing to leave, negotiations have to take place, which could take up to 2 years, meanwhile, we're still paying the EU the same money, and receiving a vast amount of it back in subsidies for farmers, fishermen, industries, Wales, Cornwall etc.

So don't expect anything too soon!!

It also appears, some people believe Democracy means they can behave like this:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales

My wife is half French half Spanish so although she pays lotsa tx here she didn't get to vote. No matter. She has been yakking to her rellies though who are more than unhappy at the UK vote. One of them is a member of the Spanish Cortes (Parliament)

Now the interesting bit.
If the Brits do trigger S50 and enter the 2 year (max) negotiations Spain will want sovereignty of the Rock of Gibraltar or they will veto any deal. That will go down very well with the Daily Snail.

It is a universal law of politics that the longer something is delayed the less likely it is to happen at all. In the English context we have third London Airport, HS2 and Hinckley Point power station all of which have dragged on for years without anything actually happening except spending lotsa money.

Now we have brexit/S50

appoint new prime minister Brum 5 Oct 2016 - delay > 3 months
Boris attempts back channel stitch up with Merkel - 3 months
it is now Jan 2017; the £ is through the floor, petrol near £ 2 / litre flood of foreign owned companies rushing through the door, very cold winter energy bills up 20% suddenly all the crinklies find £ 300 fuel allowance is not all that much ...
Nicola Sturgeon most popular person to be UK PM

who then will kick off S50 - Boris the Bold ?

I rather think not. It will be like a crew of one legged pensioners deciding who should kick the winning goal.

enjoy

Whilst I don't agree with Rollo's political leanings (He is red, I'm blue for those who haven't cottoned on) everything he has said over the past months in the referendum is absolutely correct.

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that we won't totally exit from Europe as some seem to think, nor will there ever be some magic jump in our countries fortunes. Far from it, whatever the final outcome is the reality is that the next year will hit out pockets hard. Already petrol prices are due to rise next week by 2-3 ppl because of the failing pound and that is just the start.

Who do we think is going to negotiate our departure? There is no one in the current line up that I can see.

We the electorate of Great Britain voted out. I investigated the claims & scare mongering on both sides, as I know many of the voters in Kent & Sussex did.

It seems the British voters are not the only ones who want out:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/654175/French-voters-demand-Frexit-EU-referendum-Germany-UK-Brexit

Whatever the glass half empty among us believe, my glass is half full.