General Chat

Flo,

Re the RRing last night I believe that whoever it was made the mistake of somehow reading ELizabeth for ELdrick ..........

That;s my theory anyway :-D

Joeva,

Oh, i see ! but then again i have not seen anything untowards! on Eldrick,s posts,
i know some times the posts can come across a little
strong sometimes i have to lean back in my chair and see it from Eldricks point of view to try and understand , but hey ! thats Eldrick.

Thats what make a great debate.

Hope they put Elizabeths post back!!

thank you , Flo

Hi Cyn

Yes, I do use all of those accusatory adjectives, but I also give the reasons I use them, so that the defence may state their case. m'lud. :-D And no, I don't consider that you personally are guilty of any of them, it's the principle of religion that I see in the dock over those charges. I like you :-)

But just in case you think I'm getting at christianity in particular, let me see what you think of this. Not many people appreciate the reasons behind what is going on in Afghanistan, where British soldiers are being killed almost daily. The press dont actually go on much about this.

In the 70's, a radical group seized power and began to reform the country -amongst other things, opening up education to women. The muslim extremists would not countenance that and set up a resistance, calling themselves the mujahideen. One of the leaders was Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, famous for throwing acid in the faces of women who weren't wearing a veil. Stay with me.

The Russians moved in to support the new government and the USA saw its chance. On the principle that my enemies enemy is my friend, they armed and supported the muslim extremists, which forced the USSR to withdraw. One of the extremist followers was called Usama bin Laden, a wealthy Saudi Arabian. After the USSR withdrew, the extremists broke up into factions and fought amongst themselves. Eventually a radical student group calling itself the Taliban seized control and imposed strict muslim policies, stoning women to death and generally moving back to the stone age in everything. In the name of Allah. Still with me?

Bin Laden was then free to recruit many Afghan volunteers into a group called Al Qaida, which waged a jihad against the west and the USA. The Great Satan, who wore jeans and listened to music and let women show their legs and faces. They were responsible for the embassies in africa, the USS Cole, killings in Somalia, 7/7 and, of course, 9/11. The new secret weapon was the suicide bomber.

The suicide bomber is motivated solely by religion. He (and she) fervently believe that they are carrying out gods work. They genuinely believe, hard as it is for us to understand. that they will go straight to paradise and be greeted by virgins dressed in beautiful clothes. They think that they are performing the highest duty possible and they are queuing up to do it. These are not poor, ignorant peasants. They are educated, sane, intelligent people who really believe that they are performing a wonderful task.

Ask yourself this. If one of these suicide bombers manages to get hold of a nuclear device, what will happen? London, Manchester, New York or wherever will be turned into a glass pebble display in the blink of an eye. Armaggedon will be unleashed as the west responds. Life as we know it will end.

That, my friend, is the very real, clear and present danger of worshipping something that isnt there. Religion, the root of all evil. When was the last time you heard the pope or rowan williams condemn muslim extremists? No, I thought not. I missed that bit as well. But they condemned the cartoons, didnt they.

Now, vaccinations........ :-D

Eldrick,
I can see where you are coming from but,,,,

Can i just say ! i will disagree with (Religeon being the root of all evil!)

Its being missused !! thats how i see it !!

I for one would condem anyone who used religeon to kill or maime.
but they are not sane people who do that.

Flo

I disagree with both of you Florence and Eldrick :-D...

with Eldrick for use of "intelligent"
with Florence for use of "not sane"...

I think they are sane but unintelligent.

Ok, Rambling Rose,

Perhaps you are right ,its how i see it that makes it look insane.

but i still think religeon is being missused that is the cause of the way people are not seeing it .in the way it should be seen .


Flo

The 9/11 lot were intelligent. Intelligent enough to have learnt to fly large jets, which takes a bit of doing! They were most certainly well educated, which I accept is not the same as intelligent, but by no stretch of the imagination were they stupid. Same as the UK 7/7 ones.

Flo - they are totally sane and fully believe in what they do. They believe in the same way as a christian believes that jesus rose from the dead and that he walked on water. Check out some of the videos they make before they go and blow themselves up. We are talking seriously scary stuff. And it's basically the same god as the christian one, just with a different prophet. Islam recognises jesus as the messiah, but not as the son of god.

Religion is not being misused - it is what it is. You can't say it is being misused just because you dont like it or agree with it - there are millions of muslims who fervently believe that all westerners should be killed. That IS their religion!

The thing is weren't the followers of Bin Laden wilfully misled by him. I have not read the Koran but I have seen comments by those who have that the suicide bombers and their promise of reward is not part of their religion. I stand to be corrected but these fanatics are not doing this in the name of religion, they have an agenda, to take over the West, and the terrorists who blow themselves up are not actually following the Muslim religion they are fanatics who have been made to think they are. So they become insane but they are not intelligent enough to realise that they are being misled.

So I half agree with Flo and half agree with Rose :-D

The reason Florence that I say not 'insane', is that to say that takes away responsibilty for their actions.... I remember reading that members of the Nazi heirarchy were involved in satanic ritual, something which was not brought out at Nuremburg because it would make 'insanity' an 'excuse' for their actions.

Evil or insane...it's important I think to recognise which one it is.

By the same token I dispute "intelligent" because anyone of intelligence can work out that the God who they believe made everything would not want the destruction of his creation.

But that is a basic tenet of what they believe in. They WANT judgement day. They WANT to destroy everything. They genuinely believe that Allah is merciful and will grant them huge favours if they kill infidels and martyr themselves. Judgement day is one of the islamic pillars of faith. They WANT it to happen!

It takes a weird form of intelligence to believe that from our perspective, but it is what they believe!

Has i have said often enough before not good with words !!
so here goes.

Eldrick, they believe what they were told to believe,
there is a big difference !

How can you compare it to what i believe!! i did not see it in the same way!
and certainly would not go and kill or maime.

I will say it again religeon is being misused!
in my book anyway.


Flo

Eldrick, I wonder if you think that if we all woke up tomorrow with our memories wiped of all religions that the world would really be any different?

Sadly I don't think it would...the motivation for hate would be different, but it would be described as 'us and them' still in terms of gender, or genetics, or colour or wealth or any of the other things which divide people....it would at best, I think, be one less thing but the people who wish for division would still find reasons for it and if religion was not available as one of those things they would turn to the others?

But you believe in the same way in that you were taught to believe as well. The default human position is atheism, until someone - usually a parent or a teacher - comes along and tells you about a god. It's exactly the same. Religion is learned, it is not the natural state of things. They were not TOLD to believe, they were TAUGHT to believe. No one can be told to believe anything. And that is why it is so insidious. Schools teach children in this country to believe the same things.

Just because you see it differently makes no difference. Their belief is no different to yours except that it is stronger, perhaps. You presumably wouldn't choose to die for your god!

But why are they wrong? Why is your belief better than theirs? Who are you to say that their beliefs are wrong? You wouldn't accept me telling you that your beliefs are nonsense, so why should they accept the same thing from anyone else?

There is the crux of the problem. And that is why it is so dangerous.

RR - I can but hope!

But the best I can expect is for religion to be kept chained up in churches or mosques or temples and barred from schools and public life in general. For the moment, anyway, until it fades away as it will, unless they manage to destroy the planet first.

On that cheerful note I have to go out to rescue some kittens and play with some puppies. BBL!

Eldrick,

I am going to stop you there,,, ,, first of all i did not say my religeon was better than anyone else,s. killing is wrong what ever excuse you use.
that is what i stated .( i felt you classed me thinking in the same manner.)same god you said so we must all do what we are told ect.
maybe the same god,?,, but are worshipped differently.

I can understand that we learn from home or schools about religeon in the first place, but i have lived my life exploring if you like and seeing for myself , and surely when you come to a mature age and realise somethings are not right then you should know right from wrong .
whether religeon or aethiests.

Hope i have made myself clear.

anyway someone elses turn now i,ve had enough , Eldrick doesn,t half wear you out!

Flo,,,edit ,,,i think you are confusing religeon with fanatics though
tee,hee had to have last word.

I go out for the afternoon and come back to find that not only are we still here but still discussing things.......... :-D


Sorry you thought I was running out of steam Roy, but it's an uphill battle with our Eldrick as I'm sure you realise. Not as young as I used to be......and I need time to get my grey cells (I do have some, but you can't see them) round some of Eldrick's thoughts.




Suicide bombers.....extremists......kamikaze pilots........zealots. I read your thoughts Eldrick and, I stayed with you. :-D

Of course I don't agree with the actions of these misguided people and I share your concern about nuclear devices falling into the wrong hands. I have often wondered what makes these young and, again, I agree with you, intelligent people go overboard like this. They are usually at what we oldies would call an 'impressionable' age and I guess they have believed without questioning.

Questioning one's faith helps one to grow.....:-D


I agree with Rose on the point .....even if all memory of religion was to be wiped away, there would still be conflict in the world. We are inherently 'selfish' beings and would still argue and fight to get what we wanted.


As for atheism being the default position......well, so is nakedness but I'm certainly glad someone taught us how to dress........ ;-) I'm also glad that I was taught politeness, manners, cleanliness and the difference between right and wrong.


The theory of religion (do you mind if I use the term Christianity as I have no practical experience of other faiths) may be taught but, like the other things I mentioned, if people aren't really interested, they can ignore it - just as they can stay dirty and ill-mannered if that what they choose.

I prefer to think of the Christian faith as being 'caught' rather than just taught.


:-D :-D :-D

Quote
And that is why it is so insidious. Schools teach children in this country to believe the same things.

No schools do not do this.. my son took GCSE religious studies and the whole point was to question all faiths and beliefs and interpret these in their own way.
My Son wrote a whole essay on the Catholic Church and their doctrine including questioning why the Papal legacy was hereditary in the past when Popes and other clergy of the catholic church were supposed to adopt a celebate lifestyle...
he questioned the Muslim faith .. baptist, methodist , COE and also lesser known faiths including Scientology.
He passed with an A
They were encouraged to make up their own mind about many different faiths and religions

I have to agree with Neubie, even in 'my young day' ;-) RI or RE as it was known, looked at other religions, questioned the dogma... I can remember writing an essay on the wealth of the church and whether Jesus would have approved :-)

I went to a number of schools,I don't recall any zealous religious teaching in any of them, just some rather nice prayers and optimistic tunes :-D

Cynthia, I perhaps didn't make my point as clear as I could. What I meant was, that if it is God's will that things happen, like someone is ill or hurt as that young footballer was, why do people interfere with God's will by praying for the outcome they want? Don't they trust God to decide? Also, if what happens is God's will, why accept medical intervention? To me, who doesn't understand these things, it would seem to be going against God's wishes to do that if you believe. :-S

If you think some young people with impressionable minds believe without questioning, what is more impressionable than an immature child's mind.

I read Eldrick's comment differently and did not think he was referring to all schools.

We had a COE priest who held the classes for us in the late 1970's .. he questioned everything including the miracles , resurection.
He never tried to indocrinrate us , in fact I think he enjoyed debating with a class of (mainly) agnostics..(we hedged our bets in those days) ;-)