General Chat

From time to time, from distant days some 5000 years ago, when philosophy and mathematics first became sciences, mind-boggling discoveries have been made, often foretold by philosophers or mathematicians. The position of planets, beyond those visible by early telescopes, had been predicted. James C Maxwell 1831-1879 predicted the discovery of radio waves. Now electro-magnetic radiation, which goes through a spectrum from VLF radio waves, infra-red (heat), visible and invisible light, x-rays and gamma rays is taken for granted in all its forms that have, so far, been defined. Now it seems to be that consciousness is not a brain function but something infinitely more ethereal. I predict that within the next few decades, consciousness (or soul) as an entity in its own right will be generally acknowledged by all including scientists. This will have enormous impact, morally and behaviorally, on the entire human race.

In para-psychology perception of, or knowledge of, something achieved without using our usual physical sense organs is usually criticized as trickery or over-active imagination. This applies to seeing or sensing non-physical phenomena, having premonitions, thought reading, “knowing” when one is being gazed at by an unseen observer or knowing that the ‘phone is about to ring and sensing, who is calling. There is a long history of ESP (extra-sensory perception) but it is impossible to collect and study all the evidence as ESP is not robustly reproducible under conditions of scientific experiment. The reach of the mind is enormous and much research is ongoing with thousands of researchers in many countries. It is not only ESP but many of the normal functions of the brain which although universally acknowledged and used (e.g. hypnosis. memory and stem-cell activity) are “not fully understood”, a scientific euphemism for “haven’t got a clue”.


Some experiments have seemed to validate ESP but others have been dismissed as a failure to eliminate small but helpful clues of which neither the experimenter nor the subject may consciously be aware, or trickery. At best, ESP is not reproducible at will therefore is not acceptable for scientific experiment. Science is adamant that to be acceptable, an experiment must be repeatable over and over and thoroughly tested for flaws. Furthermore most scientists have steadfastly set their faces face against consciousness or mind being separate from brain function as such an admission would upset the whole scientific applecart and the laws of physics, as generally accepted, would have to be re-thought

In a recent edition of New Scientist, a magazine devoted to the latest in science, in a theme considering research into the likes of drugs and ESP. I quote: “In no other area of scientific endeavour would it be deemed acceptable to consistently reject data that finds in favour of a certain hypothesis and instead look for flaws in that data”. If a series of experiments were somehow to conclusively establish the existence of ESP this would entail the revision of so many laws of physics as to undermine our ability to use concepts like verification and falsification consistently so it is not surprising that scientists offer more resistance to para-psychological findings than findings in other areas.

The huge technical successes of modern science have obscured a deeper understanding of its place in human knowledge but there is much to be understood about spirituality or consciousness – so far not even defined by science. The cosmos if full of uncanny bio-friendly coincidences that permit the existence of life and mind. If the universe came up with any old set of laws, life would almost certainly be ruled out. As the late Fred Hoyle, mathematician and astronomer said “It looks as if a super intellect has been monkeying with physics”. Science may yet come down on the side of Plato.


To borrow from Plato, I view God as "a rational essence, a free-floating, eternal intelligence". A conscious energy field. That is only a personal feeling. I am no more likely to be right than anyone else as I have no hot-line to heaven. Neither have the Pope nor the Chief Rabbi let alone Abu Hamza.

Well Len, as always, when I see some objective reproducible scientific evidence, I will be prepared to believe .


xxxxx mick

I'd love to believe. I'd love to believe that there was some higher being. I'd love to believe that the 'power' of the human mind could tranpsort objects or communicate silently across the ether. Unfortunately, there is no evidence at all of ESP, souls, ethereal spirits or anything else. It's simple. We are born from nothing, grow old and die and thats the end of that. Why should it be otherwise?

But there is a large industry that invests in making people believe otherwise and does very nicely out of it as well, thank you very much.

Thats my belief :-)

Thats was really interesting Len, i really do not have anything to add at this momnet.. still digesting what you have written. Needs alot more thought.. i think.

nice to see you about len.as always a good read.
let me see,yes i believe in god ,maybe its a hope i have inside me that theres something good at the end of my life ,i dunno.
esp....cant really comment the only experiences ive had are the ones we all get,like for warning of something,which i suppose could be gut instinct.
or places where ive never been before but feel i know it.
oh and the white feather that seems to appear when i think of dad,and need his advice .lots have seen this so its not just me .maybe i need the comfort of knowing my dads still around.
but i do agree with eldrick when he says theres a large industry making folks believe it.so it taints what could be true.
xxx

can i just mention this incident.read into it what you like.

20 odd yrs ago my friend took me to notts castle.we went to the brewers house museum at the side of the castle.i,d never been before so we went in and as we looked around alison watched as i went from room to room.almost like i was giving her a tour not the other way round.at one point i said ....we need to go this way theres a door down here,she said no its this way .nope its down here i swear it is.the lady who was working there said ...actually there WAS a door down there ,but we bricked it up and changed it round a bit .so your both right.later i asked mom and dad ,as a child have they ever took me there .they said no only to the castle.alison said joy it was weird you knew the place so well.
years later i started doing my tree.as i went back i found an ancestor who used to work for the castle.she would collect the rents on propertys owned by the castle.how weird .
so thats my story.xxx

I can't accept that 'we are born, grow old and die and that's it'. I believe there must be something else that we have yet to discover but we all know to be true. We have all, at some times in our life, had the sort of experience that Joy had (not belittling that at all, by the way) and I'm sure that is very real to us all. Yes, there is a large industry and lots of money made but you can say that about most good things in life - there will always be people who can profit financially out of other peoples vulnerability. Just look at the internet for that!!

I wouldn't like to say the future is pre-ordained - that is too scary. After all, we all want the choice to make things better if we can. But, why do we all want to find out about our past? (At least on here). I think we are all searching for that link to our ancestors that can't be found in parish records or BMD's. That bit that proves beyond all doubt that we are our gtx5 grandfather's gtx5 grandchild. And I;m sure we all hope that our gtx5 grandchildren will feel the same about us.

oh dear!

Same old , same old!

I would love to believe too- but show me some credible evidence!!


xxxxx mick

@beverley..i feel the same ,you just said words that ive said many times .
I can't accept that 'we are born, grow old and die and that's it'.if i had a penny for everytime i said those exact words.lol.
but the only thing i can offer is the exxperiences ive had small as they are .just like everyone else.and like mick i,d love more concrete proof.but none as yet .~~~~~~ to mick

Oh why does everyone want evidence? What would it take to make you believe something other than is beyond our normal five senses? Why can't people accept that there are things we don't know and probably never will know. Maybe we are not meant to know. Did it really matter that the earth was round and not flat? Are we really sure that it is round? What if it's discovered it's square even after all the 'proof'.

I believe what is in my heart - not just what I can see, hear, smell, touch and taste.

Here we go again, no answers just go with the flow, at the end of the day your lights are switched off, nothing, blank, zero, end of story all you can hope for that our gene line carries on so maybe one day in the far future our descendants will witness the total annihilation of the planet, by whatever may be the cause

Noooooooooooo Running Bear. I cannot accept that. Even if it turns out to be true, I can't accept it. If that is the case, when that theory was discovered, why didn't everyone commit mass suicide? They may as well have!! In fact, why don't we all now?

BECAUSE WE HAVE HOPE!!!!!!

Running Bear.....

*at the end of the day your lights are switched off, nothing, blank, zero, end of story*

You can prove this?

Don’t waste one minute of your life thinking of what happens after your dead, use all your valued minutes enjoying life no matter how long it may be, just look around you, and enjoy, cos this is it babe, no hell below us above only sky.

Add, i know i know, your the peeps that go the bed at 10pm get up at 8 am and think your in the same place.

I hope I wouldn't be so narrow-minded RB. Life is one big mystery - deal with it!!

*cos this is it babe*....how roood!......

*Add, i know i know, your the peeps that go the bed at 10pm get up at 8 am and think your in the same place.*......

Eh!......now now....keep yer aspersions to yourself! there's a good lad..... slagging us off won't change a belief.

It is in the nature of the beast that we require 'proof'...I had a long conversation with two JWs on my doorstep yesterday who look to words for 'proof' of all that was and all that will be and wanted to impart them to me so that I too had 'absolute proof' , take away those words and they would have very little I'm afraid.

But I don't need those words, I have the 'evidence' of my eyes and my heart and my brain. ( and something 'more' than the combination of those three) .

As I replied when they asked if I would like to go along and give my interpretation of the book ( ! ;)) ..I don't need or wish to persuade someone to my way of thinking or belief , nor will I be persuaded out of it... 'you' and I will know soon enough which of us got it right....or not lol.

Either way, how you live this life 'matters' either for 'making' your eternal soul if you believe you have one, or just out of 'shared humanity' and concern for the children to come.

Aetheist, Christian, Jew, Jain, Muslim...makes no odds... it is 'Love' that matters.

Well said RR.

I totally agree it is how you live this life that matters. Maybe it does matter to the extent that if you mess this one up, you don't get another chance and hence 'you are born, grow old and die, that's it'.

So, if that is the case, both could be right but nobody will ever know until it is too late to say 'I told you so'.

It's the same old story
Everywhere I go,
I get slandered,
Libeled,
I hear words I never heard
In the Bible

If you didnt want evidence about things, then you would believe in fairies. You would believe there is a teapot orbiting Mars. Some people do. Are they wrong? There is as much evidence for these as there is for anything 'paranorma' or spiritual.

From the dawn of human existence man has tried to show that there are things that can be seen or experienced by a select few. With the benefit of modern science, we know this is not the case.

Anyone who thinks there is something after death is not thinking it through, to be honest. Yes, it may be the case. But there is no evidence that it is so. It's a concept, nothing more. We would LIKE it to be that way, me as well. But there is simply nothing at all to suggest it other than peoples beliefs based on stone age mythology and experiences that can be explained by logical means but are interepreted as having some other meaning to fit in with a persons beliefs. It's human nature to do that, all amply explained better han I ever could by Professor RIchard Dawkins in his wonderful book 'The God Delusion'. I strongly commend it to everyone who has an interest in the subject.