General Chat

*With the benefit of modern science, we know this is not the case*

No, we don't know this is the case. That is the whole point. We know it hasn't been proven but it hasn't been disproven either.

Also, I am not talking about things experienced by the select few. I believe we all feel these things even if some won't admit it. There are too many unexplained experiences for it to be a coincidence and, as Len said, they are too random for scientists to study them.

That doesn't mean they don't exist.

" From the dawn of human existence man has tried to show that there are things that can be seen or experienced by a select few. With the benefit of modern science, we ****know**** this is not the case. "

No we don't...not unless you are telling me that everyone on the planet has undergone rigorous scientific examination of what they can and can't do ???

You really mustn't make sweeping statements like that you know ;) very illogical.

Lots of people who claim to have strange powers have been studied in depth. None have been able to show they actually have anything other than an obsessive belief that they can do things that others can't. There really is no need to examine everyone in the world. The cliamants themselves are sufficient to show that it's not real. So it's not a sweeping statement. I refer again to the teapot in orbit around Mars. We don't really need to test that theory, do we now.

People are gullible. Let's face it - it's a simple fact. How many billions of people avidly believed that Uri Geller could bend spoons with his mind? Check out Project Alpha and the Carlos hoax as examples of human gullibility and wishful thinking.

Here's an example. For a party trick, I hand someone a pack of cards to examine. Once they are sure that they are real, I get them to selet a random card, memorise it, put it back in the pack and seal the pack in the box. I then get them to visualise the card in their mind, perhaps put their hand on top of mine (if they are female!) and eventually after a lot of patter I will tell them which card they picked. As an extra flourish, I will get them to look under their placemat or under their seat, where they will find a sealed envelope - inside is the card they selected. I have never touched the pack.

People are amazed at this and of course, I don't tell them how I did it. A large number genuinely believe that I have a power that they haven't got. It's a trick, obviously - but if I did a similar thing hundreds of years ago I would be credited with supernatural powers. Mentalism tricks are astonishingly easy to do and highly effective for an impressionable audience.

So, yes, we DO KNOW that these things don't exist. To think otherwise is wishful thinking. I refer you back to the orbiting teapot - anyone can think of something and say -'Hey, but you dont know for sure'. Well, that may be the case. But I can make a good case out based on logic and science! Whereas the proponent can only say - 'But you dont know for sure' and leave it at that.

The unexplained experiences that people have had only remain unexplained because people dont want to explain them or find a reason. Or they won't accept the reason. I've never had any experience that isn't explainable nor do I know of anyone else who has had. People always retreat into the 'there are more things in heaven and earth' position when asked to say why they believe in ridiculous things.

Eldrick - you are, again, falling back onto the five senses. Your 'teapot orbiting Mars' would be seen if it existed because there are now various ways of finding out what is on and orbiting many planets. If it was there, someone would see it. Because nobody has seen it, it doesn't exist. But we all know about magic tricks - being fooled into seeing something that isn't there or not seeing what is there. Yes, some people are gullible and will believe in magic tricks (and a lot of magicians made a lot of money proving that), but most people really only see it as entertainment.

However, what I (and others) have been talking about is a sense that falls outside taste, smell, touch, hear and feel. I have had experiences I can't explain and others on this thread and elsewhere have experiences they can't explain either but it is very real to us all. To say that doesn't exist just because you don't understand it is, IMHO quite disrespectful of our feelings.

There we go - disrespectful again. The most overused and meaningless word in the world when it comes to challenging beliefs. To coin a saying of the great Randi - although no, I won't, as it would be disresectful.

OK, it's an invisible teapot that can read minds.

I know experiences seem very real. What I'm trying to say is that there is always an explanation if you look for it. To not look for it and to accept it as supernatural or paranormal because an answer isn't immediately obvious, is to be close minded in the extreme. People accuse me and other skeptics of being close minded. To the contrary, we are the most open minded of all, as we challenge everything and look for rationality. We invariably find it. The truly close minded are those who do not look.

Let me put it this way. You go to the doctors with a serious illness. You are prescribed a new drug that has shown to be highly effective due to scientific trials, double blind tests, etc.

But your neighbor tells you that actually what you need is a tincture of dandelion and crushed dung beetle rubbed on the sole of your foot during a full moon whilst you chant a prayer and go into a meditative state.

Which do you choose. You don't KNOW that your neighbor is wrong......but when the chips are down :-)

Actually Eldrick - you don't know me or my beliefs and you probably won't believe this - but I would go for the tincture of dandelion every time. As for the full moon - I may miss that bit out.

I am not someone who thinks scientists are Gods. I think the medical profession is one of our biggest scams at the moment and the drugs market is just a huge money-making scheme.

You claimed in your previous post *when asked to say why they believe in ridiculous things* - that was what I was objecting to. You don't know what experiences or beliefs I have - real or imaginary - but you claim they are ridiculous. That was what I took objection to.
I have taken your orbiting teapot seriously and explained that if it is there, someone would see it. If nobody seas it, it isn't there. Because you can't see my experiences, you claim they are not real but they are real to me and to others that have similar experiences.

To all who absolutely deny anything that we cannot,as yet,prove;

What are you so afraid of???

It's not 'direspectful' it is hugely patronising towards people whose intellect, logic and reasoning may well be equal to your own Eldrick... the response of 'gullible' people to a few magic tricks does not prove your point, and citing orbiting teapots, rather makes you look like a small boy stamping his feet and saying "I don't want to!".

No one is asking you to believe what you can't prove and haven't experienced, nor should anyone do so ..but please don't put others down because they do have experiences that you don't., nor consider them incapable of first looking for and accepting the rational, scientifically proveable possibilities.

Well Len, what a breath of fresh air. Within my own family I have a highly qualified physicist and I daren't so much as discuss astrology in the same room . Whilst I haven't come onto this earth to persuade anyone about the influences of the planets, and I'm not talking about the column in the papers each day, I quite regularly consult my emphemeris (daily position of the planets) knowing that a transit is effecting my life or that of a friend or relative,and checking how long the present difficulty is likely to last. I believe everything has its own time, in particular 'a discovery'. I'm still not sure about freewill .I think it was the Babylonians who were the first to discover the influences of the planets 4000 years ago so who am I to say they got it wrong. People seem to accept the moon influences the tides and some of the creatures therein but we human are detached from that effect.....I don't think -JLe

Is it safe to assume that you are talking about some experience that suggests the existence of either the supernatural or paranormal? I take it as so, as I can't see the point in mentioning it otherwise. I'm not interested in hearing what your - or others - experiences are, as anecdotes are meaningless unless supported by something else. And I've probably heard them all before anyway. 'I woke up in the middle of the night etc.'

But if you miss the full moon bit out, it won't work - which is pretty much my point.

It's not my place to convince anyone that anything they believe in is stupid or ridiculous. Far from it. Anyone can believe anything they want to, thats fine with me, as long as it's not foisted on me as being a fact unless it is provable. But by the same token, it's my prerogative to class woo beliefs as ridiculous, as that is firmly what I believe. Why should one take precedence over the other?

I dont agree with your assessment of the medical profession and many many doctors and scientists would take exception to that sweeping statement, (and find it disrespectful - ask the doctors who work in A & E in any big city) but if that's your belief then that's fine. Just so happens it's different to mine - so be it.

I have an image in my mind of a pile up on the M1. A red ford fiesta pulls up and the occupant jumps out shouting 'Stand back, I'm a qualified Homeopathic Practitioner!'. No, I don't think so, somehow.

I am not asking you to share my beliefs and, again, you are generalising. You stated 'a serious illness' and 'quoted' a mythical homeopathic remedy. All I was saying was that I would take the natural remedy over medical science because it is what I believe. I know I am in a minority about that but, again, it's my belief. As for a pile-up on the M1, that is in a completely different league as you well know.

*It's not my place to convince anyone that anything they believe in is stupid or ridiculous* - I'm sorry, but you should read your previous thread.

Anina - thats just the point I'm only afraid of things that actually exist. Why do you think that skeptics like me are afraid of anything?

RR - settle down, take a deep breath. I'm not trying to prove anything at all. No one can convince believers in woo that it's nonsense and I dont seek to do so. I cite stupid examples to illustrate how stupid the whole thing is. Nothing more. It's up to you what you believe in! Just because I point out the silliness doesn't mean that I'm disrespectful or patronising. (there's that word again). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That trumps everything else.

Are you trying to tell me that people in general aren't gullible? If so, you are sadly totally wrong. They are. In General.

PMSL, Eldrick at his best on these threads, just love um.

So you believe in Homeopathy then? Well, enough said. There's no point in continuing the discussion! However, I would love an explanation as to how it works :-)

In relation to the M1 pile up - it's an example of the use of irony, not meant to be taken literally.

well thats livened um up eldrick lol.
see i kinda go both ways on this .theres stuff i cant explain.am i gonna spend all my life looking for it ...no.
but it dont stop me thinking.
if you look at a tree ,then the leafs .there pretty amazing in there works .now think ....we need those trees to breath.without um were dead.
something thought this out real well.same as our bodys the veins etc .how all links in and makes us work.
pretty smart i say.who or how ......i dunno.
but i still feel that maybe i need some more proof to go the whole hog if you get my drift.
oh and i feel its good we dont think the same .we,d be like clones .

As an 'aside' to the teapot, there are still people who believe that man never landed on the moon, even though there is a piece of equipment up there which bounces back a laser signal from earth. So some things can be 'seen', but still not 'believed'.

My final word Eldrick - Belief

"RR - settle down, take a deep breath."

not patronising ?

hmmm

Settle down Eldrick , take a deep breath, there there dear, you just cosy up to your scientific journal like a good boy and may it bring you much comfort to believe you are right :))

Ahh, but they are the conspiracy theory fruitcakes. But I take your point, although I would add the caveat that there are things that can be seen but not believed **by those who deliberately choose not to believe**

Joy - it's just evolution in action. Darwin's natural selection at work. Read 'The Blind Watchmaker' by Dawkins. Puts it all into perspective :-)

eldrick is it like real clever stuff.[i struggle with that ]
but im all for a good read.