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Hi Kaz, As whats his name says...I WILL BE BACK!!! The kitchens calls....................:-) unfortunately. Regards Vera

Kaz, If they did have a son he may have died as a young child or he could be living with other relatives. What was the name of the child that Thomas had when he met Dora? Regards Rachel

Rachel, am i right in saying that if Thomas and Elizabeth had Edward and she dies in child-birth that Thomas raised him alone until 1900 when he married Martha, therefore they should be listed together in 1901 cencus?? So need to find pos children for Thomas and Martha and a death in order for him to have married Dora, yes??? Bigamy...wow!!! Wait til i tell mum that one,lol

ok Vera, tummies rumbling in your household,lol, thanks for all your help...enjoy your tea.xx

Kaz, I have found a birth of a John Riley in 1902 in Tynemouth - this could be Thomas and Martha's son. Thomas and Martha were living in Tynemouth round 1900.... You could request the birth certifcate of John Riley and state you only want it if the parents names are Thomas and Martha. Name: John Riley Year of Registration: 1902 Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep District: Tynemouth County: Northumberland Volume: 10b Page: 281 (click to see others on page) Regards Rachel

ye i could order cert for both Edward and John providing parents are Thomas+Elizabeth and Thomas+Martha,will also see if i can see if i can see them in a household together x 2...

Here is a death for a Thomas Riley Name: Thomas Riley Estimated birth year: abt 1904 Year of Registration: 1904 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar Age at Death: 0 District: Tynemouth County: Northumberland Volume: 10b Page: 173 (click to see others on page) Regards Rachel

Rachel, thats it Martha had Thomas in 1904 he died and so did she in child birth leaving Thomas with John, the John i said to you that was conceived out of wed-lock with Thomas and Dora, Dora wasnt pregnant at all as it was Thomas's son with Martha, John was born in 18th Aug 1907 and Thomas and Dora married in 29th July 1907, John birth was reg in Aug Qu same time as marriage...does that all make sense to you?? Does it sound about right now?

Maybe Thomas and Dora's marriage was planned so itwas her name that went on John,s birth cert or she would be classed as his mother?Yes?

Kaz, There are loads of births for children with the surname Riley. If Edward was Thomas and Elizabeth's son and if Edward survived as a young child, he would be on the 1901 census ... somewhere. Edward could be staying in a hospital, with family, relatives etc. He could even be with Elizabeth's parents as a grandson. I think a good move for you now would be to order Thomas and Elizabeth's marriage certificate and Elizabeth's death certificate. Look on the 1901 census for Martha - I haven't found her yet. Look on the 1901 census to see if Elizabeth's parents have a grandchild listed. Look at the parish records for the area where Thomas and Elizabeth lived to see names of children born with the surname Riley between 1891-1898 and with Thomas and Elizabeth as parents. Look at the parish records for the area where Thomas and Martha lived to see names of children born with the surname Riley between 1900-1907 and with Thomas and Martha as parents. Find a death certificate for Martha. That should keep you busy! lol:))) Regards Rachel PS - I'm calling it a night now - can smell tea cooking and my eyes are giving me eyelid failure!

Rachel Alot of work ahead but il plough through, sounds like he was married twice before Dora but il sit and check it all out, thank you VERY much for all your help, you have helped me find out so so much...Enjoy your tea and your well earned rest...kindess regards Kaz xx

Kaz, If Martha had Thomas in 1904 he died and so did she in child birth - find Thomas' birth certificate - if he took a single breath he will have a birth certificate, if he was a still-birth, no birth certificate. You say John was born in 18th Aug 1907 - whose names ar on the birth certificate? The mother's name must be on there and I thinkthat the mother's name on Johns certificate should be Mrtha. Thomas and Dora married in 29th July 1907 - do you have their marriage certificate, if not, send for it. , I think its all making sense now. Must go - continue tomorrow. Did you read my other message about what to do? Regards Rachel

ye Rachel i have got marriage cert for Thomas and dora thats how i know it was 29th july 1907..i got list of what to do next and im going to start on it once i have wrote things down so its easier to understand, your right it is all making sense and seems to be coming together...have a relaxing night and thank you once again..xx

Sorry Rachel, got John's DOB from computer havnt got cert, will need to send for it i think...Kaz x

Have been searching for a Thomas Riley with an occupation similar to book keeper (clerk or something of the sort) and cannot find one. I notice that Thomas said he was 30 when he was married so should have been born between July 1876 and July 1877 which would mean if he gave the same age on the census he would show as born 1877 or 1878. I assume that you know that yours was born in Newcastle? Somebody has some info? It's just that all the ones found have got manual professions so it is unlikely that they would become a book keeper. BTW Martha Riley (nee Turner) is with her widowed mother Ann in 1901 and I cannot find a death on the BMD indexes for her.

Hi there Andrea, my mum had sent for the birtmarriage certificate of Thomas sometime ago with the info she already knew about him(her grandfather), it says on the cert, its his marriage cert,29th july 1907, age 30, dora age 21, he was a bachelor, book-keeper, Dora spinster, no occ, Thomas father John Riley occ leatherwork caretaker, Dora father James analytical chemist, Thomas and Dora both living at 3 railway Terrace Wallsend. regards kaz

I recieved his birth certificate on Monday there, says he was born 1874 to a John Riley and Ellen manning, John Plasterer labourer at the time, living at 14 travellers Entry Newcastle.Regards Kaz

But what makes you think that that is his birth cert? There is more than one Thomas Riley with father John on the census. How do you know he was born in Newcastle? You must have had some reason for picking on that one - maybe that would help us to find him.

Hello again Andrea, sorry i had visitors arrive and they just away!, When i sent for the certificate i put all info down that i knew his name Thomas William Riley, born Newcastle abt 1874, father John riley ( Ireland) mother Bridget (as thats what best fitted after browsing) and they sent me cert with Thomas Riley 1874, born Newcastle, father John and mother Ellen Manning, so have taken it that what i asked for didnt add up with the GRO office, the volume i asked for has been scored out by them and another put in place, that being the ref for Thomas with John and Ellen, does that make sense? rergards Karen

1881 census Name: Thomas W. Riley Age: 7 Estimated birth year: abt 1874 Relation: Son Father's name: John Mother's name: Bridget Gender: Male Where born: N Castle, Northumberland, England Civil parish: Newcastle On Tyne St John County/Island: Northumberland Country: England Street address: 46 Grainger St West Education: Employment status: View image Occupation: Scholar Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne Sub-registration district: St Nicholas ED, institution, or vessel: 13 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age John Riley 39 Clerk Army Pensioner b Mayo Ireland Bridget Riley 37 b Roscommon Ireland John R. Riley 9 Thomas W. Riley 7 James Jos. Riley 5 Johann Turnbull 23 servant Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 5061; Folio: 5; Page: 3; Line: ; GSU roll: 1342221. All sons born Newcastle I think they have sent the wrong certificate.