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Looking at the 1901 census, the children's professions for those working (still single) are: James - Stonemason Ellen - Biscuit factory hand/breadmaker Maggie (could be short for Margaret) - Biscuit factory hand/breadmaker Regards Rachel

Rachel, thank you so much for your time and effort, once i have studied the print outs i will work on the other children also, can get very confusing at times i must say.. A BIG thank you to one and all for your help, its most appreciated. xx

Kaz, I know it can get confusing at times - I've had the same happen to me on censuses. You have some of the citation details, and on the 1901 census, it shows all the children are born in Carlisle, Cumberland; so, if you need to make sure that these children are in this family, you know the area to start looking. Please don't hesitate to contact me if I can help you - can't guarantee I'll get it right or know all the answers, but am willing to help. Regards Rachel

they must have started off in Newcastle at some point as that is where Thomas was born on his birth certificate, i cant make all the address out but it looks like 14 Travellers ?? Newcastle, looks like he was born at home as that is what it says for where he was born and where his mother lived, do you think that his parents would be in the 1871 cencus under this address? I really appreciate all the help you have/are giving me. Kaz x

This looks like Ellen's birth in 1855 England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index: 1837-1983 Name: Ellen Manning Year of Registration: 1855 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: Newcastle Upon Tyne County: Northumberland Volume: 10b Page: 5 (click to see others on page) Regards Rachel

Kaz, I agree with you - they must have started off in Newcastle at some point as that is where Thomas was born on his birth certificate in 1874. His parents may be at this address in 1871 only if they are married though. I think you need to find the full names of both Ellen and John's parents, so that you can find them on earlier censuses. You also need to find where they married - as John is from Ireland and Ellen from Cumberland, you have 2 places to look. Remember that if Ellen was b1855, the earliest she would marry would be when she was 16 (and she would need her parents consent) which would be 1871 - however, some waited till they were 21 before marrying - mainly for financial reasons, others because they did not need parental consent. Regards Rachel

Here is James' birth entry ( 7 days old on 1881 census) Discover Your Family StoryEngland & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index: 1837-1983 England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index: 1837-1983 Name: James Riley Year of Registration: 1881 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: Carlisle County: Cumbria, Cumberland Volume: 10b Page: 489 (click to see others on page) Regards Rachel

Here are the birth details for the twins Name: Francis Riley Year of Registration: 1890 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec District: Carlisle County: Cumbria, Cumberland Volume: 10b Page: 499 (click to see others on page) Name: Henry Riley Year of Registration: 1890 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec District: Carlisle County: Cumbria, Cumberland Volume: 10b Page: 499 (click to see others on page) Regards Rachel

Here's Kate's birth details Name: Kate Riley Year of Registration: 1894 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: Newcastle Upon Tyne County: Northumberland Volume: 10b Page: 35 (click to see others on page) Regards Rachel

Is that another child(Kate) after the twins were born? I think i have got myself sorted now, working thro the cencus's and they are all there at the right times, one of the twins seems to have died though so need to find that out for sure, he is in one cencus but not in another, i really appreciate all you are doing. thanks

Kaz, You are right - Kate is the twins' younger sister - she appears to be the youngest in the family according to the 1901 census. Some of the children are easier to trace than others. I have looked on the Latter Day Saints website, and can't find the children's births etc on there. It would be handy if you could get access to the parish records so you could check the childrens' births and maybe marriages? Regards Rachel

My great grandfather had a BIG family then, lol..i have found some refs for births upto now for Ellen(Mother), Thomas(i had) Ellen(1st daughter, Birth and death, i think)!! thats where the confusion started..Mary and James, have found the others in the cencus's but yet to find births etc...

Kaz, You're right - your great grandfather did have a large family. Start with what you know. You have the birth details for Thomas' mother - Ellen - you know where she was born, so you can send off for her birth certificate. You know when Ellen and John married - in 1872 - you can send for their marriage certificate and in your letter when you ask for the certificate, you can say 'I know that John is Irish' to make sure you get the right marriage certificate. You also know dates of birth for some of the other children - again, you can request some of these. Regards Rachel

Been doing my family tree for a few years now but had been concentrating on my dads side until my mum asked me if i would try and work out her side, she wants to know all about them but she doesnt know where to start, id really like to find out as much as i can for her as she knows very little, she didnt give me much to go on but looks like after getting the cert this morning i am on my way now thanks to alot of people on here(Especially you), and i cant thank you enough for that, will continue working on what i have and hopefully i will get even more info as i go...

Think I've found Henry's death - shame less than a year old. Name: Henry Riley Estimated birth year: abt 1891 Year of Registration: 1891 Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep Age at Death: 0 District: Carlisle County: Cumbria, Cumberland Volume: 10b Page: 307 (click to see others on page) If you sent for this certificate, it would give you cause of death. Regards Rachel

Aww what a shame thats two children they lost then, Ellen(1st daughter) and also Henry!! Other twin Francis is in 1891 under Francis but in 1901 under Frank..

Have you been able to find John and Ellen together before having Thomas at 14 Travellers Entry? I havnt..That is were Thomas was born.

Found John(Father) at 7 years old in Newcastle,(1861 cencus) he must of been rather young when he came over from Ireland. Need to find his birth now..

Hi, Haven't been able to find Ellen and John living together before their first son was born - don't forget that unless you married, living together out of marriage was frowned on. Here are Mary Ann's birth details Name: Mary Ann Riley Year of Registration: 1876 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: Carlisle County: Cumbria, Cumberland Volume: 10b Page: 549 (click to see others on page) Here is Mary Ann's marriage details Marriage Index: 1837-1983 Name: Mary Ann Riley Year of Registration: 1902 Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep District: Carlisle County: Cumbria, Cumberland Volume: 10b Page: 911 (click to see others on page) Regards Rachel

Thanks for them Rachel, John and Ellen married in 1872 and Thomas was born at 14 Travellers Entry Newcastle, i take it thats there address as its under her signature on the certificate, well if you can call it that, it was signed X The Mark of Ellen Riley.