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Please can anyone help with finding a John Thomas Winsell who is named on the Birth certificate of his daughter on 31st December 1896 Camberwell London. His occupation is given as Licensed Waterman. On another Birth certificate later on 29 January 1899 he is John Winsell Lighterman/journeyman. He did not marry the Mother of these children. I have searched many records and have public trees on Ancestry with this information. I have no information about a birth date for John Winsell. I have been to the Guildhall Library where they hold Waterman records but did not find him. I am aware there may be variations of his surname spelling. I have searched for his death but again nothing I can work with. I have all the information about the 2 daughters the one born in 1899 died age 3 in the workhouse infirmary. If anyone knows of another search I could try it would be much appreciated. Thank you Pam

Did he register the births? Was there an address?

Who was the mother? Did the surviving daughter live with her?

The Birth was registered by the Mother Winifred Vernon. I have all the details for the daughter born in 1896 as that is the ancestor I am researching, The address was Ruby Street Camberwell and the later child was born at 15 Goulston's cottages Lovegrove Street Camberwell. in 1899. Winifred Vernon has a lot of workhouse records and I know who her parents and siblings are. Winifred had another child in 1901 but no Father's name is given on his birth certificate. I have all the records for the Vernon family. It is John Thomas Winsell that I cant find other records for. Thank you Pam

The mother must have lied when she registered the birth, and said she was married, as the father would have had to give his consent, either by being present, or by submitting a written statement, for his name to be used by an unmarried woman.

Did Doris use the name Winsell?

Her discharge from the workhouse in 1901 with Doris and Emma Vernon says left and pregnant

Winifred had a third child Alfred John Vernon born on 5th October 1901 in the East Dulwich Workhouse. There is no Fathers name give. The address for Winifred Vernon was 1 Honiton Street Peckham . His birth was registered by Winifred the day after he was baptised on the 18 October 1901, in Camberwell. The first child of Winifred was Doris Ethel Vernon born 1896., and this is the name she used on her marriage certificate in 1916 Thank you Pam

Winifred had a third child Alfred John Vernon born on 5th October 1901 in the East Dulwich Workhouse. There is no Fathers name give. The address for Winifred Vernon was 1 Honiton Street Peckham . His birth was registered by Winifred the day after he was baptised on the 18 October 1901, in Camberwell. The first child of Winifred was Doris Ethel Vernon born 1896., and this is the name she used on her marriage certificate in 1916 Thank you Pam

???

A John Winsell, master of a barge, was admitted for bronchitis 2nd Feb 1909 at London ( river work) Barge was named 'Eva'. John was discharged as cured in March.

John was aged 46, born c1863, if that gives a lead...

In England, Dreadnought Seamen's Hospital Admissions and discharges on Ancestry.

There is no birth on freebmd in Camberwell for Doris Vernon

There is a birth for Doris Winsell. JFM 1897, which fits a 31st December birth, but NO second forename

???

In 1881 a John Winzell was the mate aboard the Lioness in 'vessels Kent'.

He was born c 1863 Sandwich , Kent.

In 1939 Doris gives her DoB as 31st December 1897 - NOT 1896 - but, again, NO birth registration as Vernon to fit

Could he be the illegitimate child named John Winser whose 1862 baptism is on FMP ??????

I could only find an illegitimate John Thomas Winser in 1860 rather than 1862 on FMP, but I was focusing, possibly wrongly, on Kent.

I feel the barge master in hospital in 1909 is likely to be correct, so the c1863 birthyear is probably right ballpark, but I might be leaping to conclusions re the 1881 mate on the Lioness, in which case the birthplace would also be wrong. But it might also be right... :-S

Thank you very much for some new leads I will follow up. With regard to Doris the Ethel got added later on. I have her Birth certificate and it is 31 December 1896 but because it was registered in 1897 that may be explains why its put as 1897. I will follow up the Barge Master in hospital in 1909. I still am not finding a death for John Winsell ? Thank you to you all Pam

You’re absolutely correct, Kucinta - I posted from memory, which was obviously faulty! Should have checked :-S :-S

John Winsell and others were charged with dredging for sand from various barges as reported in the Southend and Essex Weekly Advertiser , 3rd April 1890, but the case against Winsell was dismissed.

The Westminster Gazette 8th April 1909 has John giving evidence regarding the theft of a boat from the Eva, though strangely the Eva is described as a yacht, not a barge.

Will PM the screen shots to Pam.

On PC now, so able to C&P

This is the birth

WINSELL, DORIS VERNON
GRO Reference: 1897 M Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 921

???

John Wincles
in the England, Dreadnought Seamen's Hospital Admissions and Discharges, 1826-1930
Name: John Wincles
Admission Age: 60
Birth Date: abt 1860
Birth Place: England
Admission Date: 9 Nov 1920
Admission Place: London, England
Death Date: 10 Nov 1920

Occupation: Lighterman. <<<<<<<<<<

Cause of death: Pneumonia.

Address: 76b Villas Road, Plumstead.

The clerk was uncertain how to spell his name - originally put Wincillis, then scored that out and wrote Wincles


I don't see a corresponding death registration.

I wouldn't rule out the 1860 baptism completely ErikaH, but I was just concerned I might have jumped on the Lioness mate in 1881 too quickly, just because he was in a boat.

I still think he is a possibility, and that the alleged Sandwich, Kent, birth might be a lead, but right now it's not getting me anywhere at all! I suppose, if he was illegitimate, he might be lurking under a possible stepfather's name in 1871, but he's proving as elusive as the Scarlet Pimpernel in censuses from 1891 onwards... :-(

That death looks promising AG, kicking myself that I missed it.