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To round it off -


Thomas John Wincels
in the Web: UK, Burial and Cremation Index, 1576-2014
Name: Thomas John Wincels
Register Type: Burial
Death Date: 10 Nov 1920
Burial or Cremation Date: 15 Nov 1920
Burial or Cremation Place: Greenwich, London, England


ER for 1918:

Thomas John Wincelo
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Thomas John Wincelo
Electoral Date: 1918
Street Address: 76b Yard [ 76b Villas Road on image ]
Ward or Division/Constituency: Stoke Newington and Woolwich
County or Borough: Hackney, England


And 1920 (don't know why it didn't come up before, when searching by his name earlier)

Thomas John Wincelo
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Thomas John Wincelo
Electoral Date: 1920
Street Address: 76b I2 [ 76b Villas Road on image ]
Ward or Division/Constituency: Woolwich
County or Borough: Newham, England

Thank you I will take a look at these Pam

Following on from AG,

Freereg has baptism of Emma Maria Holtum at Birchington All Saints on 8th May 1836.

Parents are John Holtum, a tailor, and wife with forenames Moira Matilda.

Birth of John's sister Maria in the 1871 census posted earlier:

WINCLES, MYRA MARIA mmn HOLTTUM
GRO Reference: 1866 M Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 567

???


WINCLES, SELINA MARY mmn HOLTTUM
GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 207


Selina M. Winsell
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Selina M. Winsell
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relationship to Head: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where Born: Hackney, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Nonington
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street Address: Easole St
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Domestic House Work
Registration District: Eastry
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors:
Piece: 996
Folio: 22
Page Number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
John Holttum 71
Myra M. Holttum 73
Selina M. Winsell 18
Sarah A. Holton 76

Selina is also with the Holttum grandparents in 1871.


Selma M Knowles
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Selma M Knowles
Gender: Female
Age: 25
Relationship: Wife
Birth Year: 1866
Spouse:
Harry Knowles
Child:
Doris N Knowles
Birth Place: Hackney, London, England
Civil parish: Battersea
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrew
Residence Place: Battersea, London, England
Registration district: Wandsworth
Sub registration district: East Battersea
ED, Institution or Vessel: 37
Neighbors:
Piece: 427
Folio: 62
Household Members Age Relationship
Harry Knowles 28 Head
Selma M Knowles 25 Wife
Doris N Knowles 12 Months Daughter
Emma M Knowles 50 Mother [Mother-in-law on image ]



Selina M Knowles
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Selina M Knowles
[Selina M Winkle]
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Spouse: Harry Knowles
Mother: Emma M Winkle
Birth Place: Hackney, London, England
Civil Parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Catherine
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration District: Lambeth
Sub-registration District: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 44
Neighbors:
Piece: 431
Folio: 58
Page Number: 46
Household Schedule Number: 349
Household Members:
Name Age
Harry Knowles 38
Selina M Knowles 37
Dorie N Knowles 11
Henry G Knowles 9
Alice M Knowles 7
George E Knowles 4
Edith M Knowles 2
Emma M Winkle 60 - mother-in-law, Margate (just beside Birchington, her POB on other censuses)


Selina Winsell
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936
Name: Selina Winsell
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1865
Marriage Date: 12 Dec 1886
Marriage Place: St Mary Magdalene, Southwark, Southwark, England
Father: Thomas Winsell
Spouse: Harry Knowles
Register Type: Parish Register

Thank you. I also think the death in 1920 looks promising. Regarding Doris Vernon I have her Birth Marriage and Death certificate.

???


Freebmd has a possible marriage for

Thomas Claringbold Windes
Emma Maria Holttum

Marriages Jun 1861 Eastry 2a 1037

Hmmm - different birthplace ??

John Windes [ Wincles on image ]
in the 1871 England Census
Name: John Windes
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: 1864
Relation: Son
Gender: Male
Where born: Stepney, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Mile End Old Town
Ecclesiastical parish: St Phillip
Town: Mile End Old Town
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub-registration district: Mile End Old Town, Western
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Household schedule number: 158
Piece: 554
Folio: 119
Page number: 26
Household Members Age Relationship
Thomas Windes 44 Head - Custom House Officer
Emma Windes 34 Wife - Birchington, Kent
John Windes 7 Son
Maria Windes 5 Daughter - Stepney

Eastry would be the right registration district for a birth in Sandwich, looking very good.

EDIT, think you've probably cracked it as I was typing the sentence above, AG!

Following on from that possibility -

???
Births Dec 1863 (>99%)
WINCLES Thomas John Eastry 2a 721

Doesn't seem to come up on GRO site.

???
Thomas John Wincles
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Thomas John Wincles
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 22 Nov 1863
Baptism Place: Knowlton, Kent, England
Father: Thomas Wincles
Mother: Emma
FHL Film Number: 1786622
Reference ID: item 6 p 11

On the London Electoral roll for 1920, on Ancestry, at 76b Villas Road, Woolwich, there's Thomas John WINCELO.

He doesn't come up when I search for him by name on the ER.

This will be the death record:

Deaths Dec 1920 (>99%)
WINCLES Thomas J 60 Greenwich 1d 993

That death looks promising AG, kicking myself that I missed it.

I wouldn't rule out the 1860 baptism completely ErikaH, but I was just concerned I might have jumped on the Lioness mate in 1881 too quickly, just because he was in a boat.

I still think he is a possibility, and that the alleged Sandwich, Kent, birth might be a lead, but right now it's not getting me anywhere at all! I suppose, if he was illegitimate, he might be lurking under a possible stepfather's name in 1871, but he's proving as elusive as the Scarlet Pimpernel in censuses from 1891 onwards... :-(

???

John Wincles
in the England, Dreadnought Seamen's Hospital Admissions and Discharges, 1826-1930
Name: John Wincles
Admission Age: 60
Birth Date: abt 1860
Birth Place: England
Admission Date: 9 Nov 1920
Admission Place: London, England
Death Date: 10 Nov 1920

Occupation: Lighterman. <<<<<<<<<<

Cause of death: Pneumonia.

Address: 76b Villas Road, Plumstead.

The clerk was uncertain how to spell his name - originally put Wincillis, then scored that out and wrote Wincles


I don't see a corresponding death registration.

On PC now, so able to C&P

This is the birth

WINSELL, DORIS VERNON
GRO Reference: 1897 M Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 921

John Winsell and others were charged with dredging for sand from various barges as reported in the Southend and Essex Weekly Advertiser , 3rd April 1890, but the case against Winsell was dismissed.

The Westminster Gazette 8th April 1909 has John giving evidence regarding the theft of a boat from the Eva, though strangely the Eva is described as a yacht, not a barge.

Will PM the screen shots to Pam.

You’re absolutely correct, Kucinta - I posted from memory, which was obviously faulty! Should have checked :-S :-S

Thank you very much for some new leads I will follow up. With regard to Doris the Ethel got added later on. I have her Birth certificate and it is 31 December 1896 but because it was registered in 1897 that may be explains why its put as 1897. I will follow up the Barge Master in hospital in 1909. I still am not finding a death for John Winsell ? Thank you to you all Pam

I could only find an illegitimate John Thomas Winser in 1860 rather than 1862 on FMP, but I was focusing, possibly wrongly, on Kent.

I feel the barge master in hospital in 1909 is likely to be correct, so the c1863 birthyear is probably right ballpark, but I might be leaping to conclusions re the 1881 mate on the Lioness, in which case the birthplace would also be wrong. But it might also be right... :-S

Could he be the illegitimate child named John Winser whose 1862 baptism is on FMP ??????