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With an extention to my Meads tree, I've spent endless hours searching the situation of Gina Marion Hall. Her mother Kathleen May Hall1896 gave birth to Gina in 1917 in Croydon, Surrey. But Kathleen did marry until 1925, to Frank Charles Sivyer in Croydon.
In the 1939 Register Gina is with Kathleen and Frank with the name "Manning" crossed out and "Ives" penned in! But Gina did not marry until 1943, to Sydney Frederick Ives1914 in Croydon. Gina died in 2002, still in Croydon.
Questions: Did Kathleen have Gina it seems "out of wedlock" to a "Manning" who died in WW1? Why is "Ives" penned in 4 years before she married Sydney Ives?
FS shows "Hall or Manning" Croydon Reg 2a 1464. FMP definately shows "Gina Hall" with the same Reg.
Can someone please give any answers to the questions please.

Terence Meads. South Australia.

The 1939 register entiries like this are confusing and the simple answer is as the 1939 register was used in conjuction with the UK National Health Service register in 1948 the surname of many women were altered on the 1939 register to their married name at that time,so did Gina take a temp surname of Manning before she married Mr Ives or later in life become Manning,,,,,,or it maybe a simple mistake from 1948 or the names entered wrong during 1939 when used for rationing book issue?

Looking at the image of the 1939 entry -
Gina was entered on the Register as Manning to start with ( not as Hall or Sivyer), and then was later updated to Ives.

So she had been using the name Manning before Sept 1939 for whatever reason - or maybe Kathleen had been with a Manning before marrying Frank, and Gina's name had been changed to Manning in childhood.

On the GRO Index image, Gina is named as "Hall or Manning" on her marriage to Sydney - as you have said.
Kathleen married Frank only as Hall - not that that proves anything.

However, as there's no Manning marriage for either of them, we'll never know for sure.

Marriages Jun 1943 (>99%)
Ives Sydney F Hall Croydon 2a 1464
Ives Sydney F Manning Croydon 2a 1464



Gina M Manning
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Gina M Manning
[Gina M Ives]
Gender: Female
Marital status: Single
Birth Date: 22 Jun 1917
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 7
Residence Place: Croydon, Surrey, England
Occupation: Type Assembler Acc Merch
Schedule Number: 141
Sub Schedule Number: 3
Enumeration District: CLRX
Registration district: 39-3.
Household Members:
Name
Frank C Sivyer
Heathleen M Sivyer
Gina M Manning

When Gina was born her mother must have been living with a Mr. Manning and was known by that name otherwise the birth would be ithe register twice - once as Hall and once as Manning. To have the mother's maiden name given as Hall or Manning means that she was known by both names. However her legal name would be Hall so that is what Gina was although probably known as Manning. It could probably be that Mr. Manning was Gina's father.

As Kay has already said, the 1939 register was updated with women's married names right up to around 1990. The date that the register was updated with her married name is in the address column - 11th May 1943 - which is either the date of her marriage OR the date that the register was updated.

Kath. x

Kath -
Gina was born as Hall, not Manning.

Births Sep 1917 (>99%)
Hall Gina M Hall Croydon 2a 381


It's Gina's marriage which is under both names.

Marriages Jun 1943 (>99%)
Ives Sydney F Hall Croydon 2a 1464
Ives Sydney F Manning Croydon 2a 1464


So either Kathleen was with Mr Manning AFTER Gina's birth, or else Gina was with a Mr Manning before 1939.

Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding your post?


EDIT:
Or Mr Manning could have been Gina's father, but Kathleen didn't name him on Gina's birth cert, so she was only registered as Hall.

As all the parties concerned are deceased, not sure how you think an answer can be found, or, frankly, whether it is relevant

You could invest in a copy of the woman’s birth cert, but I doubt it would prove very illuminating. Ditto the marriage cert, but any info on there would only be ‘as supplied’ and not necessarily totally true.

I wonder if the Manning should have been Marion and somehow as we know from paper to paper in transcripts and ink hand written its materialised as Manning.?

I doubt that, as the 1939 register is very clear - Gina M Manning - so that was the name she was known by at that time
PLUS - both surnames were recorded on the marriage registration, which would mean that the 'father's' name differed from hers.

It might be interesting to see what name she gave for her father...............

Maybe she was registered as Hall but used her fathers surname name,no one knows if Kathleen ever lived with him...…..its a question that will be left unanswered.

Gina used Manning as the maiden name on her child's birth registration.

Hi all and thankyou for your comments. I wondered about alterations on the 1939 Register, and thought later additions should be explained.
I had not searched for Gina's children until now, and found only Alan S Ives, born JAS1947, Croydon 5a 227. MMN only Manning! The family may have moved away after Alan and may have had more children. But I am not concerned about that at this time.
Many thanks again to all you 'helpers'. Without you, we would be left wondering about final answers.

Terence Meads. South Australia.

Gina HALL born 1917 is on the 1921 census on FMP

You can see all the info on the record by paying for it. One does not have to be a subscriber to the website to pay for 1921 info.

These are the others in the household
Found by manipulation - NOT payment

Elizabeth
Wilford
1851
London, London, England
Caterham
Godstone
Surrey

Kate Marion
Hall
1894
Caterham, Surrey, England
Caterham
Godstone
Surrey

Dorothy Ada
Manning
1914
Caterham, Surrey, England
Caterham
Godstone
Surrey

Elizabeth
Manning
1861
Boston, Lincolnshire, England
Caterham
Godstone
Surrey

Grace
Manning
1912
Purley, Surrey, England
Caterham
Godstone
Surrey

Herbert
Manning
1908
Kenley, Surrey, England
Caterham
Godstone
Surrey

Mabel Mary
Manning
1885
Caterham, Surrey, England
Caterham
Godstone
Surrey
Percy Thomas
Manning
1888
Hythe, Kent, England
Caterham
Godstone
Surrey

Percy Thomas
Manning
1910
Purley, Surrey, England
Caterham
Godstone
Surrey

Thank you again ErikaH for more information re Gina.
I will add this to that particular file.
I have only briefly searched the 1921 census.
As you have seen, I'm trying to add to the beginning of my tree.

Kind regards.

Terence.

Son Alan Ives is still living in Croydon to 2019 !

Not sure how you can possibly add the 1921 info I posted ‘to a file’ without determining the relationships involved, which can only be ascertained by looking at the original image

1939 for some of the people in the 1921 records posted by ErikaH - revealing some of the relationships , or at least marital status:

Dorothy A Manning
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Dorothy A Manning
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Single <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Birth Date: 1 Sep 1914
Residence Date: 1939
Address: 45 Cromwell Road
Residence Place: Caterham and Warlingham, Surrey, England
Occupation: Domestic Servant
Line Number: 34
Schedule Number: 264
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: Dmbj
Borough: Caterham and Warlingham
Registration district: 34/2
Household Members Age
Dorothy A Manning 25
Grace Fenwick 27 - married - 17 March 1912 [ Grace Manning in 1921 record ]
This record is officially closed.
Percy T Manning 51 - SINGLE - 25 June 1888
Mabel M Manning 54 - WIDOW - 8 June 1885
Herbert S Manning 31 - SINGLE - 17 Nov 1908
Percy T Manning Jr 29 - SINGLE - 13 Aug 1910


Births:

MANNING, PERCY THOMAS mmn HALL
GRO Reference: 1910 S Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 242

MANNING, HERBERT SYDNEY mmn HALL
GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 235

MANNING, GRACE mmn HALL
GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 462

MANNING, DOROTHY ADA mmn HALL
GRO Reference: 1914 D Quarter in GODSTONE Volume 02A Page 378

MANNING, PERCY THOMAS mmn WAITE
GRO Reference: 1888 S Quarter in ELHAM Volume 02A Page 985




Re Mabel M Manning, widow -

??
HALL, MABEL MARY mmn HOLMAN
GRO Reference: 1885 S Quarter in GODSTONE Volume 02A Page 180

Marriages Dec 1908 (>99%)
MANNING Herbert Croydon 2a 657

Marriages Dec 1908
HALL Mabel Mary Croydon 2a 637 [ 657 mistranscribed ??]


Husband's birth:
MANNING, HERBERT mmn WAITE
GRO Reference: 1887 M Quarter in ELHAM Volume 02A Page 1028

Herbert Manning
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Herbert Manning
Age in 1911: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Hythe, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Croydon
Country: England
Street Address: 2 Purley Downs Road, Purley
Marital status: Married
Years Married: 3
Estimated Marriage Year: 1908
Occupation: Painter House
Registration District Number: 39
Sub-registration District: South Croydon
ED, institution, or vessel: 38
Piece: 3319
Household Members:
Name Age
Herbert Manning 24
Mabel Mary Manning 25
Herbert Sidney Manning 2
Percy Thomas Manning 7/12
Elizabeth Manning 50


Herbert Manning
in the UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919
Name: Herbert Manning
Birth Place: Hythe, Kent
Residence: Upper Caterham, Surrey
Death Date: 26 Mar 1918
Death Place: France and Flanders
Enlistment Place: Croydon, Surrey
Rank: C.S.M.
Regiment: Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment
Battalion: 10th Battalion
Regimental Number: G/9642
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

So far, I don't see any obvious relationship between Gina's mother Kathleen May Hall and Mabel Mary Hall - but I assume there is one.

They had different fathers, who weren't brothers:

Mabel Mary Hall
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Mabel Mary Hall
Gender: Female
Age: 5
Relationship: Daughter
Birth Year: 1886
Father:
Samuel John Hall
Mother:
Catherine Hall
Birth Place: Caterham, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Caterham
Ecclesiastical parish: Caterham
Residence Place: Caterham, Caterham, Surrey, England
Registration district: Godstone
Sub registration district: Godstone
ED, Institution or Vessel: 3
Neighbors:
Piece: 582
Folio: 55
Household Members Age Relationship
Samuel John Hall 32 Head - Stonehouse, Devon
Catherine Hall 29 Wife
Sidney Gev Hall 6 Son
Mabel Mary Hall 5 Daughter
Ada Florence Hall 2 Daughter
Amy Maude Hall 1 Daughter
Edgar Denis Hall Under 1/12 Son



Kathleen May Hall
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Kathleen May Hall
Age in 1911: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1896
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Sutton, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Sutton
Country: England
Street Address: Oakbank, Grange Rd Sutton, Surrey
Marital status: Single
Occupation: School
Registration District Number: 31
Sub-registration District: Carshalton
ED, institution, or vessel: 08
Piece: 2930
Household Members:
Name Age
Alfred Charles Hall 47 - Lambeth
Julia Richmond Hall 39
Kathleen May Hall 15
Stewart Scott Hall 6
Jessie Dawson 25
Louisa Longhorn 18

HALL, STEWART SCOTT SCOTT
GRO Reference: 1905 J Quarter in EPSOM Volume 02A Page 7

Marriages Jun 1893 (>99%)
Hall Alfred Charles Hampstead 1a 1267
Scott Julia Richmond Hampstead 1a 1267


Looks like she was reg as May Kathleen

HALL, MAY KATHLEEN SCOTT
GRO Reference: 1896 M Quarter in EPSOM Volume 02A Page 7


1911 census states parents married 18 years and only 2 children born both still living