Find Ancestors

Lilly in 1911


Name: Lilly Baily
Age in 1911: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1881
Relation to Head: Servant
Birth Place: South Bank, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Stockton on Tees
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street address: 22 East Street Stockton On Tees
>> Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Barmaid Working
Registration district: Stockton

married 9 years, 2 children born, both living

it all hinges on when Walter was last known to be living in England

between 1902 and 1911, dozens of W(alter) Baileys travelled out of England ...

if Walter was not known to be living and in England after his marriage, it is possible even that one or both of the children were not his

there's no sign of the children being supported by father as a result of him being in WW1 ........... not that that is any proof as only about 30% of the records survive!


It's as if Walter and Lil(l)y have disappeared off the earth!

Good find, Joonie

do you think Walter abandoned Lilly and the children?

or vice versa ;)

more commonly the husband abandoning though ... a wife might leave an abusive husband if she had a better option, but leaving kids with her mother and going elsewhere to work in a bar might not have been a better option

but then sometimes wives just ran off, too

maybe Sheila will share what she knows ...

I find it interesting that the youngest child was born in Yorkshire, according to the 1911 Census, but Lilly is back in Stockton then.

I've tried searching for W E B .................. nada

and I'm betting that nothing we have 'found' here was ever missing and Sheila knows all this, including the 1911 censuses, and is asking precisely because Walter went missing after the marriage ..........

of course ...........


but we weren't given that information!



ps ............. I did however enjoy the maple-glazed ham that I made for dinner :-D

Here is Lily 1939 still married





Bailey Household (2 People)
?56 Halt Street , Middlesbrough C.B., Yorkshire (North Riding), England



? Lily Bailey 12 Mar 1881 Female Housemaid Married 220 1
? Anthony Coles 06 Jan 1925 Male Errand Boy Single 220 2


Mavis

That's back on the middle of page 1, Mavis :-)

I'm hoping Sheila may be back, but it has been the holiday

(Mavis ... have you and I talked Hoares?)

opps didn't notice


no JoonieC not talked Hoare's
Mavis

How do you know that the Walter that married Lily was born in Cheshire 1875?

Do you have your father's (Norman) birth certificate? What was the address and occupation of his father?

Do you have Norman's marriage certificate? Did he list his father as deceased?

Do you have the marriage certificate (1902)? Who is Walter's father, what is Walter's age and occupation?

If you have the 1902 marriage certificate and are certain that Walter born in Cheshire is correct-

Do you have Walter's birth certificate? His exact date of birth may help to find him on the 1939 register.

yes, many questions, including all those already asked ...

I have PMed Sheil to ask her to return

Hi, Thankyou for info, I have Norman's birth cert (1904 Newcastle) father occupation Marine Engineer, I also have Norman's marriage cert ( 1936 Middlesbrough) father Walter Bailey so he must have been alive then although he did'nt sign as witness to the marriage !!!.
I don't understand yet as to why the two sons lived with their Grandmother in 1911. My Grandmother (Walter's wife) lived until 1951.
Regards, Sheila

A father's name on a marriage certificate doesn't always mean he was living, sometimes it just means the person was asked 'father's name?' and gave it.

It wasn't uncommon at the time for children to live with grandparents if parents were estranged, or widowed, and the custodial/surviving parent was having to work. In particular she was a barmaid, so would have worked nights, and apparently her job was live-in as she was there overnight on census night.

Sheila, can you answer the question about how you know that he was Walter E Bailey born in 1875 in Birkenhead, Cheshire?

do you have the marriage certificate and it shows his age? his father's name?

that seems to be essential if you want to trace him -- knowing his age at marriage, at a minimum

with his age and father's name, his family could be identified ... it might even be possible to find descendants of a brother or sister of his who remember or know of an 'Uncle Walter' ...

the 1891 household does fit with his occupation on Norman's birth certificate

John Bailey 39 ship plater
Grace Bailey 37
Walter E Bailey 16 steam engine maker apprentice
Edith G Bailey 15
Joseph E Bailey 11
Gertrude Bailey 5
John W Bailey 2
Albert Bailey 1

... but where was he in 1901 ... even if on board a vessel he should be in the census

Anglo-Boer War?

The fact that she was working at what would be a full time live-in job also probably means that the marriage had broken down.

It is quite possible that the boys had no idea what had happened to their father. They might know his name, but have no idea where he was or whether he was dead or alive.

There is also the problem of WW1 ................. only about 30% of the service records exist from that war, and one is extremely lucky if one finds a record for a relative. There are more records for medals etc ............ but they don't usually give enough information to allow identification of "your" relative from a number of others with the same name.



As Joonie says, the information on a marriage certificate depends on how the question is asked ........

if the Vicar says "what is the name of your father?"

The reply might not include the added information that "..... but he's dead"

If the father asks "What is the name of your father, and is he still alive?"

The the reply will include "Yes, he's alive ....." or "No, he's dead .....".

PLUS ...... there is the fact that people lied on their marriage certificates.

Not only could they give the wrong age, but many have been known to give a fictitious name for a father if they were illegitimate.



The fact that you have Norman's birth certificate with the information that his father was called Walter Bailey, and that he was a Marine Engineer (which you didn't tell us before!!), is proof that there was a father named.

Have you got Lilly's marriage certificate??

Did she actually marry Walter?

we're all asking the same questions!

1911
9 George St South Bank Yorks
Lavinia Leighton 65 1846 Female Head Widowed Scarborough, Yorkshire Boarding House Keeper
Walter Bailey 9 1902 Male Grandson 0 Newcastle-On-Tyne School
Norman Bailey 7 1904 Male Grandson 0 South Bank, Yorkshire School

This refers to young Walter:

National School Admission Registers & Log-books 1870-1914 Transcription
Walter R Bailey
Birth: 30th Sept 1902 (although 13th Feb had been put first them crossed out)
Address of Parent or Guardian: 9 George Street
Name of Parent or Guardian: John
Event year 1910
School name Princess Street Primary School (Boys)
Town South Bank
County Yorkshire
Book type Admissions
Archive Teesside Archives

Also this which may refer to Norman:

National School Admission Registers & Log-books 1870-1914 Transcription
Hy Norman Bailey (Leighton surname crossed out)
Address of Parent or Guardian: 39 ? Millbank Street
Birth 18th July 1904
Parent of Guardian (John crossed out with deceased written over the top) Walter Bailey (S) fitter
Event year 1912
Book type Admissions
School name Princess Street Primary School (Boys)