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Perhaps ties in with AustinQ's find re schools. Charge of guardian in 1912 due to a death

Name: John Bailey
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Registration Year: 1912
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 58
Registration district: Stockton
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Durham
Volume: 10a
Page: 61

????

Walter E Bailey
Military Year: 1914-1920
Rank: Sapper
Medal Awarded: British War Medal and Victory Medal
Regiment or Corps: Royal Engineers
Regimental Number: 259212
Previous Units: Royal Engineers. 259212. Pnr.

Following on from Chris's find, the only Walter Ernest Bailey death in Scotland is this one


1919 BAILEY WALTER ERNEST M 0 GOVAN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/21 0769


Spent a few credits and looked at it and he's the son of Walter and Margaret. His father Walter Ernest is an Engine fitter (Sapper R.E.). His father was the informant.

Chris- (Good find!) it certainly sounds as though they're discussing the same Walter (although Sheila does need to purchase the marriage cetificate for Walter and Lily to confirm).

This is taken from the link Chris put up:

"You needed to stay in Scotland because that is where Walter Bailey married Margaret Gollagly on 8/11/1913 in Glasgow (strange they come up as Walter and Margaret in the index but when you view the certificate it just has 'W' and 'M'. He was 33, son of John Bailey, Ship Plater and Grace, nee Griffiths - both shown as deceased. She is 21, dau. of James Gollagly, Tailor (journeyman) and Helen, nee Mills.

Although they married in Glasgow the address for them both is given as 27a Parkhead Street, Motherwell"
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And, although the age is wrong for Walter, it does seem to fit with these parents:

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Major Street, Stockton on Tees, Stockton, Durham, England

John Bailey Head Married Male 39 1852 Ship Plater Bunbury, Cheshire, England
Grace Bailey Wife Married Female 37 1854 - Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Walter E Bailey Son Single Male 16 1875 Steam Engine Maker Apprentice Birkenhead, Cheshire
Edith G Bailey Daughter - Female 15 1876 - Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Joseph E Bailey Son - Male 11 1880 Scholar Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Gertrude E Bailey Daughter - Female 5 1886 Scholar Stockton, Durham,
John W Bailey Son - Male 2 1889 - Stockton, Durham, England
Albert Bailey Son - Male 1 1890 - Stockton, Durham, England

Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1874

BAILEY Walter Ernest Tranmere Wirral TRA/19/50

http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php

(and)

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1873

BAILEY John GRIFFITHS Grace Liverpool, St. Peter Liverpool 2122LP/61/285

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/index.php

(quite a discussion on below!)

Chris :)


http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=631469.27

Walter Bailey and Margaret Gallagher - Middlesbrough

(Walter's parents John Bailey and Grace Griffiths appear to have married in Liverpool in 1873. By 1881 they are living in Durham and they did indeed have an Walter Ernest BUT he fibbed about his age as he was actually born in Birkenhead, Cheshire in 1874!! So when he married in 1913 saying he was 33, he was actually 38/39. I have Margaret and Walter residing in Motherwell at the time of their marriage in 1913)

Also this which may refer to Norman:

National School Admission Registers & Log-books 1870-1914 Transcription
Hy Norman Bailey (Leighton surname crossed out)
Address of Parent or Guardian: 39 ? Millbank Street
Birth 18th July 1904
Parent of Guardian (John crossed out with deceased written over the top) Walter Bailey (S) fitter
Event year 1912
Book type Admissions
School name Princess Street Primary School (Boys)

1911
9 George St South Bank Yorks
Lavinia Leighton 65 1846 Female Head Widowed Scarborough, Yorkshire Boarding House Keeper
Walter Bailey 9 1902 Male Grandson 0 Newcastle-On-Tyne School
Norman Bailey 7 1904 Male Grandson 0 South Bank, Yorkshire School

This refers to young Walter:

National School Admission Registers & Log-books 1870-1914 Transcription
Walter R Bailey
Birth: 30th Sept 1902 (although 13th Feb had been put first them crossed out)
Address of Parent or Guardian: 9 George Street
Name of Parent or Guardian: John
Event year 1910
School name Princess Street Primary School (Boys)
Town South Bank
County Yorkshire
Book type Admissions
Archive Teesside Archives

we're all asking the same questions!

The fact that she was working at what would be a full time live-in job also probably means that the marriage had broken down.

It is quite possible that the boys had no idea what had happened to their father. They might know his name, but have no idea where he was or whether he was dead or alive.

There is also the problem of WW1 ................. only about 30% of the service records exist from that war, and one is extremely lucky if one finds a record for a relative. There are more records for medals etc ............ but they don't usually give enough information to allow identification of "your" relative from a number of others with the same name.



As Joonie says, the information on a marriage certificate depends on how the question is asked ........

if the Vicar says "what is the name of your father?"

The reply might not include the added information that "..... but he's dead"

If the father asks "What is the name of your father, and is he still alive?"

The the reply will include "Yes, he's alive ....." or "No, he's dead .....".

PLUS ...... there is the fact that people lied on their marriage certificates.

Not only could they give the wrong age, but many have been known to give a fictitious name for a father if they were illegitimate.



The fact that you have Norman's birth certificate with the information that his father was called Walter Bailey, and that he was a Marine Engineer (which you didn't tell us before!!), is proof that there was a father named.

Have you got Lilly's marriage certificate??

Did she actually marry Walter?

Sheila, can you answer the question about how you know that he was Walter E Bailey born in 1875 in Birkenhead, Cheshire?

do you have the marriage certificate and it shows his age? his father's name?

that seems to be essential if you want to trace him -- knowing his age at marriage, at a minimum

with his age and father's name, his family could be identified ... it might even be possible to find descendants of a brother or sister of his who remember or know of an 'Uncle Walter' ...

the 1891 household does fit with his occupation on Norman's birth certificate

John Bailey 39 ship plater
Grace Bailey 37
Walter E Bailey 16 steam engine maker apprentice
Edith G Bailey 15
Joseph E Bailey 11
Gertrude Bailey 5
John W Bailey 2
Albert Bailey 1

... but where was he in 1901 ... even if on board a vessel he should be in the census

Anglo-Boer War?

A father's name on a marriage certificate doesn't always mean he was living, sometimes it just means the person was asked 'father's name?' and gave it.

It wasn't uncommon at the time for children to live with grandparents if parents were estranged, or widowed, and the custodial/surviving parent was having to work. In particular she was a barmaid, so would have worked nights, and apparently her job was live-in as she was there overnight on census night.

Hi, Thankyou for info, I have Norman's birth cert (1904 Newcastle) father occupation Marine Engineer, I also have Norman's marriage cert ( 1936 Middlesbrough) father Walter Bailey so he must have been alive then although he did'nt sign as witness to the marriage !!!.
I don't understand yet as to why the two sons lived with their Grandmother in 1911. My Grandmother (Walter's wife) lived until 1951.
Regards, Sheila

yes, many questions, including all those already asked ...

I have PMed Sheil to ask her to return

How do you know that the Walter that married Lily was born in Cheshire 1875?

Do you have your father's (Norman) birth certificate? What was the address and occupation of his father?

Do you have Norman's marriage certificate? Did he list his father as deceased?

Do you have the marriage certificate (1902)? Who is Walter's father, what is Walter's age and occupation?

If you have the 1902 marriage certificate and are certain that Walter born in Cheshire is correct-

Do you have Walter's birth certificate? His exact date of birth may help to find him on the 1939 register.

opps didn't notice


no JoonieC not talked Hoare's
Mavis

That's back on the middle of page 1, Mavis :-)

I'm hoping Sheila may be back, but it has been the holiday

(Mavis ... have you and I talked Hoares?)

Here is Lily 1939 still married





Bailey Household (2 People)
?56 Halt Street , Middlesbrough C.B., Yorkshire (North Riding), England



? Lily Bailey 12 Mar 1881 Female Housemaid Married 220 1
? Anthony Coles 06 Jan 1925 Male Errand Boy Single 220 2


Mavis

of course ...........


but we weren't given that information!



ps ............. I did however enjoy the maple-glazed ham that I made for dinner :-D

and I'm betting that nothing we have 'found' here was ever missing and Sheila knows all this, including the 1911 censuses, and is asking precisely because Walter went missing after the marriage ..........

I find it interesting that the youngest child was born in Yorkshire, according to the 1911 Census, but Lilly is back in Stockton then.

I've tried searching for W E B .................. nada