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Potty/Flip....I tried looking for Scott/Bell births and Arnott/Bell births....And the ones I found with similar names look good...problem is they conflict with the twins :-(

I started out thinking that if the Scotts are to the left and the Arnotts to the right on the photo that, maybe, the Scotts preceded the Arnotts? So I can find a Doris and a Kathleen in Sunderland 1916 and 1918 and a Ronald Margaret and Doris in Newcastle 1916, 1917 and 1919....

Potty - Ronald

Births Sep 1916 (>99%)
Scott Ronald Bell Newcastle T 10b 249 Scan available - click to view


:-S

But these leave no room for Anne-Marie's twins.

Think we need Ann-Marie to come back on this with more about the photo.

There are births for Doris, Catherine and Margaret Arnott (mmn Bell) in that order from 1908-1914. So maybe Ronnie is a nickname.

But then maybe Ronald as posted by Jude as Scott (mmn Bell) is a possibility . Then there are the twins births in Dec qtr 1917 - so not impossible.

Flip - and the 1914 birth is for Maggie - as on the photo.

Yes, I realise that Potty, I think we need Ann-Marie to come back with some more background info to be able to go any further with any degree of certainty (if there ever is such a thing with our ancestors!!)

Don't you just love them, always trying to confuse ;-)

Sorry for the delay in coming back to all of you good people,just trying to find out a few answers for you. Thank you for your help:-

The photo which my older sister obtained when clearing out the house after both my parents died,is of one female which could have been taken in 1901. She is not a young girl more of a young woman. Dressed in a high necked blouse and a long skirt, with her hair tied back in a bun. There is no one else in the photo,no furniture etc and unfortunately no photographers stamp. The writing on the back is definitely my Fathers.

On the birth certificate for my Father it just states Sarah Arnott Of no occupation.

As far as I know my Father was brought up by his Mother, but even my older sister cannot recall much. I never met any of my Grandparents, as being the youngest of 6 they had all died by the time I was born. My Father did not speak about his family or childhood.

I do recall going to Newcastle about 50 years ago when I was small, and staying with an Auntie Kitty. I always believed that she was my Dads twin, but my sister now tells me that she was Kathleen, Uncle Ronnies wife. Auntie Kitty lived on her own. I don't know if Ronnie had died, or they were divorced.I only remember my Father going back to Newcastle once more and that was just before Auntie Kitty died.

When we went to Newcastle I do remember visiting an Auntie Margaret, and also an Uncle Arthur!! I have just found an Arthur A Scott DOB 1925 mmn Bell !! His name was definitely NOT on the back of the photo.

My Father married my Mother, Margaret Curry on the 14.12 .1939

I found also Sarah Arnott married George Scott in 1947, so I am definitely confused!! :-S

Sorry one last thing. I thought that my Fathers middle name was spelt Reize, but on the birth certificate it is spelt Rozee. I don't know if this helps at all.

The only other thing that I can remember is that Dad was not keen on the Americans. Not sure if this is from the war, when he was in the army??

Ann-Marie

I don't know if this is of any help, but I've just looked at Wards street directory for 1916 and at 140A Monday Street was a J Arnott, a tailor.

ADDED: So that's the same address as on your dad's birth certificate.

This must surely be the James Arnott who was at 46 Darnell Street on the 1911.

Here's a link to the 1916 Wards directory, it's worth downloading the pdf file as it can then be searched more easily.

http://leicester.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16445coll4/id/112444

I should have added in my post above that the directory was published 1916 although the information was obviously collated earlier which could account for how James Arnott is included although he died 1915 (I'm pretty sure the death record posted is him)

I have been following the story and the working outs -- how about this one
for Ronnie

George R Scott mmn Bell - Dec Q 1921 Newcastle T - 10b 697

could have been known by second name as Dad was George??

you may need to get one or two more certs to find more answers

Mavis

Marie, that's a great find and I think more or less confirms we are onto the right family - even though he was dead before the directory was published.

So Ann-Marie, on the back of the photo were the names in a list or along side each other?

What I'm getting at is if it was a list and the Scott name was only recorded against Ronnie then he/she may have been born later - and the earlier children Doris, Catherine & Maggie were Arnotts rather than Scotts. Just trying to use a bit of logic to help solve the problem of interpreting the words your father put on the back of the photo.

Thinking about it, do you have a copy of the photo (both sides) you could copy up to keepsafe and share it?

There is a tree on Ancestry that has Doris Arnott as a child of James Arnott and
Christina Straughan [1885]

A James Arnott married Christina Straughan Dec 1917 Glendale ,Northumberland

would it be wise to get the death cert. of the James Arnott to make sure its the
James Arnott who married Sarah Bell ??

Was there a reason perhaps why if Sarah didn't marry George Scott till 1947
-- if that is the right one.

Mavis

The preamble on the Wards directory is that it covers the period 1910-1919 (although published 1916).

I would hazard a guess that the 1947 marriage between Sarah Arnott and George Scott is them and it may have only been then that Scott was free to marry her.

Thinking about Kitty/Kathleen - is it not that the sister Catherine/Kathleen married a Ronnie and that's where his name comes into it?

Mavis, that could have been a different Sarah Arnott. There were a few around.

It now looks like she had illigetamte twins in 1917 after her husband died, so it isn't unreasonable that she had another illegitimate child after this but father went to the birth registration? Just thinking we are talking about war years - and nothing is impossible.

Flip, that's what I was thinking - perhaps George Scott was away at war so unable to accompany Sarah for the registration of the twins.

Flip unfortunately I don't have a copy of the photo. We are coming home to England at the end of the month so I am hoping to get one then. I have just spoken to my sister and she says that the names are in a list with Scott recorded along side Ronnie. I just thought that all the other children were Scott too, but as you said perhaps they were Arnotts.

The only record I can find for Ronald Scott is DOB 1916, then my Father was born in July 1917. I do wonder about his middle name of Rozee. Perhaps it has some connection with his Father?? All so confusing!! Does it get easier with experience?

Thank you again for all of you help.

I see your father's dob from his death registration, but it hadn't occurred to be before - she was well outside the time limits for registering his birth (reg Oct-Dec qtr) wonder why the delay...

Not sure I accept the Ronald Scott birth in 1916 - if you look at the index he also appears to be a twin, with a Raymond Scott on same page. If this is the right Ronnie why isn't Raymond mentioned on the photo - he appears to have survived childhood.

I've just checked for possible deaths for Ronald/Raymond - and there are 2 showing same dob (23/6/1916), Raymond died in 1979 in Newcastle and Ronald in 1987 in Blackpool/Fylde so pretty convinced now that this is the wrong Ronald.

And no, it doesn't get any easier - they were a slippery lot those ancestors of ours ;-)

If it were me, I would be tempted to buy the Scott/Arnott marriage certificate to confirm whether or not it is your Sarah - and it should give a fathers name so you can take your research back a bit further.

Yes Ann-Marie...you certainly have given us a puzzle!

I agree with Flip that the marriage certificate of Sarah and George would be useful - even if it eliminates rather than informs.

I also might be tempted to get the death certificate for James Arnott.

It really looks like Sarah Bell married James Arnott and had the three children Doris, Catherine and Margaret, then the twins as Arnotts after James had died and maybe then then perhaps Ronald as a Scott.

It might be worth looking for a marriage for "Kitty and Ronnie" - is this Kathleen the daughter marrying a Ronald or Ronald the (assumed) son marrying a "Kathleen" :-S

Maybe someone with a bit more military knowledge could check this out:

Thomas George Alfred Rozee
Rank:AB
Birth Date:17 May 1893 << not sure this is right, think he was born 1891
Birth Place:Poplar, London
Branch of Service:Royal Navy
Cause of Death:Killed or died as a direct result of enemy action
Official Number Port Division:J.4568. (Ch)
Death Date:23 Jan 1917
Ship or Unit:HMS Simon <<think this should read Simoom
Location of Grave:Not recorded
Name and Address of Cemetery:Body Not Recovered For Burial
Relatives Notified and Address:
Friend: Rebecca Payne 96 Adamson Road, Custom House London,E

The ship was built in Glasgow in 1916, could it have been based in Newcastle at some point in 1916?

I realise he's a fair bit younger than Sarah - but you never know.........the Rozee name she gave both twins must have some significance.

Flip/Jude I will do as you suggest and get those certificates . Also I will carry on with my journey and keep looking. Who knows what might turn up!

Thank you all for your help, at least I do know now a lot more than when I started.

Ann-Marie :-)

Re: the Naval record Flip posted, I'm not very good on naval matters but found Thomas George Alfred Rozee's service records:

He signed up 1909 and served on numerous ships. Those that he was on in his last few years were:

Lilac 14/06/1915 - 19/08/1915
Pembroke I 20/08/1915 - 15/09/1915
Dido (benton ??) 16/09/1915 - 03/12/1916
Pembroke I 04/12/1916 - 20/12/1916
Dido (Simoom) 21/12/1916 - 23/01/1917

Don't know if anyone knows how to find out where those ships were at certain times?

There's a note on his records that his actual date of birth was 17 May 1892 but that 1893 would continue to be used for official purposes.

This birth comes up on FindMyPast but not on FreeBMD or Ancestry:

England & Wales births 1837-2006
First name(s) THOMAS GEORGE A
Last name ROZEE
Birth year 1892
Birth quarter 2
Registration month -
Mother's last name -
District POPLAR
County London
Country England
Volume 1C
Page 709

It's been mistranscribed on FreeBMD as:

Births Jun 1892
Rozee William George A Poplar 1c 709

(I've submitted a correction).

I do think the names are significant, but this similarly named lad is also in the running:

Births Mar 1891
ROZEE Thomas George Bethnal Green 1c 277

This older of the two was in the Royal Field Artillery and died 1942, having married Ethel May Lambert in 1911.