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Right, I think this is the George and Elizabeth that married in 1850.

1861

Name: George Frederick Reed
Age: 51
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1810
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Isabella Reed
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England
Civil parish: Old Artillery Ground
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image
Registration district: Whitechapel
Sub-registration district: Artillery
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 278
Piece: 264
Folio: 132
Page Number: 46
Household Members:
Name Age
George Frederick Reed 51 <<<<<<< Cordwainer
Elizabeth Isabella Reed 43
Lucy Elizabeth Reed 10
Sophia Isabella Reed 3


1841 (remember ages were round down to mutiples of 5 for the purpose of the 1841 census)


Name: George Reed
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St Martin in The Fields
Hundred: Westminster
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

View image
Registration district: St Martin in the Fields
Sub-registration district: Charing Cross
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 739
Book: 1
Folio: 46
Page Number: 17
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Lucas 20
Samuel Taylor 15
George Reed 35<<<<<Shoe Maker

That's a question indeed!

I have a grandmother called Charlotte
She is the youngest daughter of Elizabeth and George READ, cabman, of Peace Cottages, St. Pancras.

On her wedding banns, her father is named as George Galloway REED, cabman.

I am writing this in pieces which I am then pairing up to see which are obvious "fits" and which need more detective work.

Many thanks again, I am having a fabulous afternoon thanks to everyones help, seriously enjoying this!!

I don't think that's my George and Elizabeth. I have nothing anywhere with children called Lucy or Sophia.

The G & E I have are married in Islington in 1850, apr-may-June quarter. And her name is Elizabeth Lucy Scarr

Just trying to piece this together, great fun! :-D

Thank you's again everyone

I don't think that the 1850 marriage is your family Caroline.

Where did you get Elizabeth's maiden surname from please?

Do You have Charlotte's birth certificate please? That would confirm her mother's maiden surname.

I am with you Roots !!!

I think that marriage should be put very much aside for now !!!

Dea Xxx

Oh, thank you Dea, I thought I was going crazy for a while there.

Mrs. Rootie xx

I can see a baptism for Charlotte but not a birth reg. yet!

Name: Charlotte Read
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 23 Sep 1867, b. 9 Sept. 1867
Father's Name: George Read
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Read
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers

Maybe this one?

Births Dec 1867 Read Charlotte Pancras 1b 54

Name: Emma Read
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 8 Feb 1857, b. 14 Dec. 1856
Father's Name: George Read, Cab Driver
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Ann Read
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bloomsbury St George
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers

Address: Little Guildford Street.

Also Baptized the same day were her two brothers.

George Walter Read b. 28 August 1848
William Edward Read b. 3 July 1851

(aah!, the previous Caplin 'Threads')...


Name: Edward Coplin
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Charlotte Read
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 4 Jul 1886
Parish: St Pancras Old St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Father Name: Edward Coplin (Tailor's Crayon Maker)
Register Type: Parish Register

(nothing other than Dead, written for Father)


Name: Charlotte Caplin (Widow)
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Age: 30
Spouse Name: Walter Haud (Hand) (Widower)
Spouse Age: 51
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 15 Oct 1898
Parish: Limehouse St Luke
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: George Galloway Reed (Coachman)
Spouse Father Name: Thomas Haud
Register Type: Parish Register

Chris :)


Name: George Walter Read
Age: Minor
Spouse Name: Caroline Baker
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 20 Jun 1869
Parish: St Pancras Parish Chapel
Borough: Camden
Father Name: George Read (Cabman. Deceased)
Spouse Father Name: George Robinson Baker
Register Type: Parish Register
(address as, Hastings St.)

Name: Jane Emily Read
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 9 Mar 1863, b. 14 Feb 1863
Father's Name: George Read, Coachman
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Ann Read
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers

Name: Elizabeth Ann Read
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 30 Jun 1860, b. 16 June 1860
Father's Name: George Read, Cabman
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Ann Read
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers
Address: Hastings Street



Fredricka on the census is actually this child!

Name: Frederick Arthur Read
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 4 Jul 1864, 30 May 1864
Father's Name: George Read, Coachman
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Read
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers
Address: Wilstead Street

This looks like Frederick's birth to get the mother's maiden surname.

Births Sep 1864 READ Frederick Arthur Pancras 1b 83

Well done Mrs Rootie :-)

This is why threads should not be deleted - I too remember the 'crayon maker' now but, unfortunately, not all of it !!!

Dea Xxx

Now what do you think of this Dea please? A possibility?

Name: Elizabeth Ann Fox Bassett
Spouse Name: George Reed <<<<<<<<< Coachman
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 15 Jul 1856
Parish: Paddington St John
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: William Bassett, Policeman
Spouse Father Name: George Reed, Carpenter
Register Type: Parish Register

Both of Full age and living Torrington Mews

Yes, I agree Dea. If the original thread had been there I would have looked at it as I don't remember it from before.

Oh my goodness!
I was ambushed by my daughters and dragged away for some retail therapy.
I have returned and trying to dissect all that has gone on.

From what I have read, Caroline's ancestor Charlotte, could not be the daughter of George Reed and Elizabeth Allison or Scarr.
Charlotte was born in 1867.
" The G & E I have are married in Islington in 1850, apr-may-June quarter. And her name is Elizabeth Lucy Scarr"

Elizabeth Allison/Scarr/Reed seems just a bit too old.
This woman was 1st married 36yrs, before Charlotte's birth
Even if Elizabeth was around 16yrs old at the time of her 1st marriage, she would still be in her early/mid 50's at the time of this birth.

Do we agree that Caroline has identified the wrong marriage for Charlotte's parents... is that where we are now?
Are we now trying to find some confirmation that Charlotte's parents were probably Elizabeth Ann Fox Bassett and George Reed who married in 1856?

Yes Anne. I think that we are agreed that the George Frederick Reed and Elizabeth Isabella Lucy Allison / Scarr marriage is no longer in the picture.

The baptisms of the children give the mother as Elizabeth Ann. I posted the George Read and Elizabeth Bassett marriage as a possibilty. The three oldest children were all baptised on the same day which made me think (probably erroneously) that the parents had maybe married later.

I think that the only way forward (or backwards) with this is to buy a birth certificate for one of the children to find out the mother's maiden surname.


EDIT

Caroline hasn't told us why she thought the 1850 marriage was the correct one.

Chris, I think that George Walter lied about his father being deceased when he married. Probably because he was under aged. His father is listed with the rest of the family in 1871.

Good heavens above!! I leave the site for a few hours and look what you all do?? how amazing are you??

I have searched and searched for Charlotte. The whole story as I am now aware of it is something like this, are you sitting comfortably?

My mums mum is called either Florence Charlotte OR Charlotte Florence. Never been able to trace a birth cert. Her mother is Charlotte Reed OR Florence Reed. The spelling of Reed was either REED or READ..

My mums mum was put into the poorhouse after her father died. He was Edward Caplin who died 25th Feb 1895 in 91 St. Dunstans Road, Mile End aged 37. On the 1891 census his age is 34 hers is 24. There was no contact between mother and daughter from the time she was sent away.

I worked on Charlotte being approx 27 when Edward dies, When Charlotte remarries to John Poole on 19th Nov 1906, she claims her age to be 34. She has a daughter with John Poole, Dorothy, who is born in 1905 but Charlotte puts her name on the birth certificate as Charlotte Poole even though they are not yet married for another year.

Charlottes death certificate states her age in 1945 as 74.

Confused yet? you soon will be!

Between Edwards death and Charlotte marrying John Poole, there is another marriage. There has always been family talk of this being a bigamous marriage.

As far as I have something to go by now, the groom was Walter Hand. He was already married. The brides father is given as George Galloway REED who is a cabman.
Going on this, I found a George Reed of approx the same age who had a daughter Charlotte in c1867. They were living at Peace Cottages. By 1871 when Charlotte is 4, Edward Caplins family is also living at Peace Cottages.
Now, I see on the census of 1871, that George Galloway Reed is a lodger living with George Reed and family, Peace Cottages and he is also a cabman. MY POOR HEAD!!

Please, if I have gone wrong, accept my sincerest apologies. I am finding this all very puddling!

What should I do? There is no one left to ask in the family, my mum is 91 and was always vague at the best of times bless her!

There is so much heresay but little fact to go on so I think I may have been floundering in the dark a bit :-(

Mrs Rootie, this one you gave me marries up with the census details of 1861 and 1871. The names and ages of the children are almost spot on to what I have for them. Have a Merit Mark!!

Name: Emma Read
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 8 Feb 1857, b. 14 Dec. 1856
Father's Name: George Read, Cab Driver
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Ann Read
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bloomsbury St George
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers

Address: Little Guildford Street.

Also Baptized the same day were her two brothers.

George Walter Read b. 28 August 1848
William Edward Read b. 3 July 1851

By 1871, the family has grown somewhat! There are now seven children and Charlotte (great granny) is the youngest aged approx 3

Those details you have found are REALLY helpful, thank you so much!

I am going to run out of Thank you's!! Honestly, I am so grateful to everyone.

I have looked and like Dea and Chris, I am certain that Charlotte was the child who was born and baptised in St Pancras 1867, daughter of George Reed and Elizabeth.
They are most definitely the family from both the 1861 and 1871 censuses.
Both addresses match in order, to those on the baptismal certs that have been unearthed.
However, has anyone found this family in 1881?
We know that the eldest, George is already married and with the exception of Charlotte, all the others will be classed as adults... I think this is Charlotte....1881 England Census about Charlotte Read
Name: Charlotte Read
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Pauper Inmate (Pauper)
Gender: Female
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Watford
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England
Street Address: *****St Pancras Industrial Schools Leavesden *****
Education:
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Watford
Sub-registration district: Watford
ED, institution, or vessel: St Pancras Industrial Schools
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1439
Folio: 116
Page Number: 20

As this is an industrial School, there are many inmates, but only one other child called Read who was also born in St Pancras.
Cannot find this birth to see if George and Elizabeth had another child before disappearing/dying.
It may be a red herring

1881 England Census about Alfred Read
Name: Alfred Read
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Pauper Inmate (Pauper)
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Watford
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England
Street Address: St Pancras Industrial Schools Leavesden
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Watford
Sub-registration district: Watford
ED, institution, or vessel: St Pancras Industrial Schools
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1439
Folio: 116
Page Number: 20