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EDIT: - PLEASE SEE FINAL PAGE

I have another dilemma - and am hoping others on this board will have some suggestions on where to go next!

Eliza Ann Steel is my paternal great grandmother

I obtained her MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE

Eliza Ann Steel married Robert William Smith in 1904 (Poplar – St Andrew, Bromley). On the marriage certificate her father is shown as George Steel (Deceased) Able Seaman, Eliza is aged 27, Robert is 33.

I have obtained her BIRTH CERTIFICATE (at least I think I have):

Born November 1876 – Poplar – registered by mother – SHE MARKED.
Mother Name: Mary Ann Eliza Steele then amended to Steel on the certificate - formerly Thompson
Father Name: Thomas John Steel no 'e' shown on Cert (Yuk – Thomas John doesn't agree with Marriage Info!)
Father Occupation: Merchant Seaman (that’s close enough to Marriage Info)
Birth shown as 12 Lion Street – gone now, but not far too from the docks, I believe

So I obtained the Steel / Thomson (without the 'e' AND without the ‘p’ this time) MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE

Name:THOMSON, Mary Ann Eliza
Registration district: [?]Poplar
County:London
Year of registration:1865
Quarter of registration:Apr-May-Jun
Volume no: [?]1C
Page no: [?]1130

Mary Ann Eliza Thomson married one of the following people

HARRIS, William
>>>>>>STEELE, George Henry
ELLIS, Elizabeth Sarah

So, May 1865 (Bromley St Leonard) marriage, details as follows

Name: George Henry Steele (yes with an ‘e’) – HE SIGNED his full name - with the 'e'
Full Age (not much help there)
Bachelor
Address at time of Marriage – Bromley – which is not helpful
Occupation: Sawyer:
Father: Henry George Steele also a Sawyer

Name: Mary Ann Eliza Thomson (without the ‘p’) – SHE SIGNED Mary Ann E Thomson
Full Age (not much help there either)
Spinster
Address at time of Marriage – Bromley – still not helpful
Father: William John Thomson - deceased

The witnesses were: William John Thomson and Ellen Steele (BOTH SIGNED IN FULL)

So I am seeking your views on the following:

Have I somehow managed to involve myself with wrong certs? (I am very careful to check, as far as I can)

Why do some of my relatives ‘forget’ how to sign their name when registering a birth - or did they send someone else to register the birth - or have I got the wrong people?

What do I do next to find them?

I am having difficulty finding an appropriate Thomson family or Steel family before or after the marriage / with a (suspected) relevant birth year on Census Records, to show me where to try to keep looking for them - but I have found these:

Baptism
Day:18
Month:Mar
Year:1825
Son/Daughter:Son
Forename:George Henry
Surname:Steele
First Parent:William
Second Parent:Elizabeth
Notes:
Parish:Portsea St Mary
County:Hampshire

So he would have been about 40 when he married Mary Ann Eliza (if it is him) but wrong father shown!

I also found these Thomson records (I’d go for the St George in the East record as the most possible as Mary Ann E, born Mile End, is too young but possibly related!)

Name:THOMSON, Mary Ann Eliza
Registration district: [?]St. George in the East
County:London
Year of registration:1845
Quarter of registration:Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no:[?] II
Page no:[?]107

Name:THOMSON, Mary Ann Eliza
Registration district: [?]Chelsea
County:London
Year of registration:1845
Quarter of registration:Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume no:[?] 3
Page no:[?]31

Name:THOMSON, Mary Ann E
Registration district: [?]Mile End Old Town
County:London
Year of registration:1875
Quarter of registration:Apr-May-Jun
Volume no:[?] 1C
Page no:[?]583

Also, I am struggling to find a census that fits for George Henry Steele, but have found this death

Name:STEELE, George
Registration district: [?]Poplar
County:London
Year of registration:1898
Quarter of registration:Apr-May-Jun
Age at death:66
Volume no:1C
Page no:332

But then the Portsea Baptism is (probably) out and means I should be looking for a birth around 1832.

I also found these Mary Ann Steele deaths - which put the deceased's birth around 1844/1845 and that would agree with 'Full Age' on the marriage certificate:

Name:STEELE, Mary Ann
Registration district: [?]Whitechapel
County:London
Year of registration:1895
Quarter of registration:Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at death:48
Volume no:1C
Page no:230

AND

Name:STEELE, Mary Ann E
Registration district: [?]Southwark
County:London
Year of registration:1907
Quarter of registration:Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at death:63
Volume no:1D
Page no:87

I think need to try to attach Steeles and Thomsons to a family on a census to go back further - and confirm I have the correct people.

I have managed to find other elusive relatives but these Steeles and Thomsons are causing me more than a little confusion. Any suggestions or help would be appreciated.

Janet

I wouldn´t worry too much about spellings. Most people didnt read & write too well until relatively recently & made an educated guess.
As for signing or not signing their names, many registrars assumed that people couldn´t write, so told them to make a cross without even asking if they knew how to sign.

Wisechild thank you for that explanation of the signing/not signing aspect

Is this the family in 1911 - but they say they have been married 17 years; 5 children, 1died:

1911 England Census
about Eliza Smith
Name: Eliza Smith
Age in 1911: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Poplar
Civil parish: Poplar
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 8 Devas Street, Bromley By Bow E
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 17
Estimated Marriage Year: 1894
Registration district: Poplar
Registration District Number: 22
Sub-registration district: Bromley
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Piece: 1682
Household Members: Name Age
Robert William Smith 41
Eliza Smith 34
Robert Smith 14
Henry George Smith 12
Thomas William Smith 4
Ernest Smith 1

Yes that is them - one of the family comments was that they 'married late' - which they did aged 27 and 33 but also after having a number of children - Ernest aged 1 is my grandfather,

Name: George Henry Smith
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1899
Baptism Date: 3 May 1899
Father's Name: Robert William Smith
Mother's name: Eliza Ann Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bromley St Leonard St Mary
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Registers

The family in 1901:

1901 England Census
about Robert Smith
Name: Robert Smith
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1897
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Robert Smith
Mother's name: Eliza Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Bromley, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Bromley
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrew Bromley
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Bromley
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 246
Piece: 344
Folio: 167
Page Number: 44
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Smith 30
Eliza Smith 25
Eliza Smith 6
Robert Smith 4
George Smith 2

Gosh it's tough to tell if you have the correct births and marriages.

This would appear to be "someone" in 1871:

1871 census transcription details for: St Leonard Rd, Bromley
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10
Piece: 573
Folio: 5
Page: 9
Reg. District: Poplar
Sub District: Bow
Parish: Bromley
Enum. District: 25
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: St Leonard Rd, Bromley
County: London, Middlesex
THOMSON, Eliza A Head F 63 1808 Kent
THOMSON, William J Son M 24 1847 Middlesex
STEELE, Mary A E Daughter F 26 1845 Middlesex
STEELE, Henrietta Daughter F 1 1870 Middlesex
ADAMS, Jane Boarder F 50 1821 Middlesex


It looks as though Henrietta died in 1888 in Poplar but I don't see her in 1881.

Maureen

Potty

Yes, the 1901 is them, showing children Eliza, Robert and George, then the 1911 showing Robert , George, Thomas and Ernest - Eliza is missing - which is another mystery and the assumption based on the 1911 Census is that she is the child that that had died. However, my Dad remembers his aunt Eliza and who she married! They might have had another daughter and called her Eliza but the marriage I have found is in 1915. Another mystery for another day!

Janet

MaureeninNY

That is interesting - certainly gives me something to look at especially as the age for Mary A E Steele ties in with Full Age on the marriage cert - William J Thomson fits with the witness and also Henrietta - they can all add to my list of 'possibles' for my tree - the Steel/Thomson leaves are sparse!

I thought it was odd that the marriage was in 1865 and Eliza Ann was born in 1876.

Janet

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Reuben John Smith
Name: Reuben John Smith
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1901 (1st Nov 1901)
Baptism Date: 1 Dec 1901
Father's Name: Robert William Smith
Mother's name: Eliza Ann Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union: Poplar St Andrew
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Registers

(address as 1901)

Chris :)

Chris

Thank you - so this must be the dead child - between George c1899 and Thomas c1907. It makes sense as Robert William (my great grandfather) had a brother called Reuben (Ruben).

That means Eliza c1895 on 1901 Census was just 'missing' in 1911 and also they miscounted their children on the 1911 showing 5 born and 1 died!

Janet

Births Dec 1901 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------------(Yours)
SMITH Reuben John Poplar 1c 599

(then below)

---------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1903 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
SMITH Reuben John Poplar 1c 634

Deaths Mar 1904 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Smith Reuben John 1 Poplar 1c 379


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Reuben John Smith
Name: Reuben John Smith
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1903 (20th Feb.)
Baptism Date: 11 Mar 1903
Father's Name: Reuben John Smith
Mother's name: Eliza Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Gabriel, Chrisp Street
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Registers

(then)

Deaths Dec 1905 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Smith Reuben John 2 Woolwich 1d 718


Chris :)

Sad and a 1903 birth/ 1905 death for Reuben John and Eliza (nee Branch) Smith.

Quite interesting that it is registered in Woolwich because I have Reuben and Eliza (why do my family not only have the name smith but also the same first names in a lot of instances!) with another son Henry George (another recycled name or two) on the 1911 Census and they are all born Poplar.

I do know that Robert William (great grandfather) and Reuben John (the brother) were the sons of a William who WAS born in Woolwich - and a Mariner - and there was another brother who was of course named Henry George! Still can put anotehrr tick by Woolwich on the list of places to research.

Janet

Chris

I have just looked again at the births/deaths of the Reuben John Smiths - and have confused myself as I can't get the death ages to agree with births - but nevertheless it may clear up another mystery. I always wondered why, when they got married in 1904 Eliza Ann (Steel) Smith's residence was shown as being in the Sick Asylum - that could be the reason - if she lost a child.

The other Eliza married to Reuben seems to have lost 8!

Janet

Lol, would say the 1904 Death was 1903 Birth (the other couple)

But not sure who 1905 Death belongs too, age 2, as can't see another Birth...and a Reuben John is witness on 1915 Marriage you mentioned....

Grief eh?...

Poplar Sick Asylum looks like a workhouse (from a quick look on google)

Chris :)

Chris

Just updated my tree with 2 Reubens and looked on FMP - the death in 1905 shows as aged 3 - which makes him Robert and Eliza's son aka my great uncle (deceased)

Civil registration event: Death

Name:SMITH, Reuben John
Registration district: [?]Woolwich
County:London
Year of registration:1905
Quarter of registration:Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at death:3
Volume no:1D
Page no:718

Thanks also for the info on a Reuben John being a witness on the marriage - Eliza to a James Darby perchance? So as far as I can see the only Reuben John managing to live long enough is the Reuben John married to Eliza (Branch) Smith - unless of course the other brother Henry George (who was the eldest of the 3 brothers - my g granddad in the middle) managed to have a son called Reuben John, who lived and attended the marriage!

Just realised these SMITHS have overtaken my STEEL/THOMSON thread - but nevertheless have got lots of information I didn't have before - all named Reuben John Smith - and all mine - whether close or not.

Yes Sick Asylum / St Andrew's Hospital was (or a least connected to) a workhouse. I actually went to view the records for the couple of years prior to 1904 to see why Eliza (Steel) Smith was there - no record of her in 1904, but did find Robert there not long before the marriage and one of the other children there a year or so after - know it was them as the address was Thomas Street. Maybe Robert was sick, Reuben John (toddler) died and they thought it was time to get married. Might need to get the 1905 death cert at some point - see who he was with in Woolwich.

Janet

So, we still need to tie the two families together.

I've tried every combination I can think of to find Eliza on the 1881 and 1891 censuses (and I'm sure the other helpers have tried too). But I just can't see her.

Or maybe she has been found, and I missed that bit. Has she?

(Ooh yes, FMP Death says 3, clearer image than FreeBMD!)

Can you make out the Witness names on your Eliza 1904 Marriage, could they hold a clue?...(not clear on Ancestry image)

Chris :)

edits (sorry Christina, hadn't read back!, but that Maureens find looks interesting!)

Hi ChristinaS

The two families are only tied together at the Robert William Smith / Eliza Ann Steel marriage in 1904 - but if I try to find Eliza (product of Thomson/Steel) prior to that in 1881 or 1891 then like you there appears to be (so far) absolutely nothing. That is why I had the idea that the marriage cert for her parents (Steel and Thomson) in 1865 would give me more to work on - still absolutely nothing.

Except MaureeninNY's 1871 Census post at 15:56 today which has a Steel/Thomson combination (the rest of this post was overtaken by Smiths - we're like that).

Janet

Yes, I'm sure MaurreninNY's 1871 census is the correct one for the Mary Ann Eliza Thomson who married George Henry Steele.

They can be followed back to 1851 when the father William Thomson is still alive. So that all fits together nicely.

The trouble is connecting Eliza to that particular family. Even though it looks pretty likely, it would be nice to have a little bit more evidence.