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In 1841 the child in that household is definitely Elizabeth, aged 2.

Civil parish: Toxteth Park
Hundred: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire

Peter Rice 35 - born Ireland (not foreign parts as per Ancestry)
- B? labourer - don't know what it is but a lot on the page are BK or BM or Brk labourers
Margaret Rice 30
William Rice 6
Peter Rice 4
Elizabeth Rice 2


Could she have been called Catherine?

I have to check back -- do we know Peter's occupation from Catherine's marriage certificate?

janey...think dundalk is in province of leinster,ireland......i'm in n.ireland and dundalk is only 16 miles from me!! could it be leinster,ireland and not leicestershire,england?

unfortunately,occupation bit is missing. i will send a message to the other lady and ask if her copy is complete and it only cut the ends off when she sent it to me

just a sugg...could brk labourer be bricklayers labourer?

just a sugg...could brk labourer be bricklayers labourer?

That's what I meant, Elaine -- moronic Ancestry has transcribed it as Leicestershire but it plainly says Leinster.

Problem here is we can't find a Catherine in the household of that Peter and Margaret -- the Catherine in 1861 with mother Margaret looks possible, especially if matched with the married Peter who is a night watchman, but can't see them earlier.


This Catherine in 1861 -- edit !! aargh, I meant 1851, no wonder the confusion!! -- is a good match for age, and born Ireland -- a little out of the way, but she could have joined her brother in Lancashire later?

Name: Catharine Rice
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Ireland
Occupation: house servant

Civil parish: Louth
County/Island: Lincolnshire

That could be, yes, bk/brk = bricklayer's.

You may need to get hold a proper copy of the marriage certificate yourself if you can't track that copy to a complete one.

I have to go do some real work, have fun!

that got louth down as lincolnshire(where there is a louth) but Dundalk is in Co.Louth. in the Province of Leinster!

Louth is in Lincolnshire but the catherine mentioned was born Ireland

jax

thank you so so much.....have sent e-mail to ann asking her to check her cert. if she bought it from gov, source,surely it would be complete?

i must have been writing at same time as you jax! louth is indeed in lincolnshire...but Dundalk(see janeys )is in Co.Louth. Province of Leinster. janeys reasoning about a ships nightwatchman not being home on census day,makes sense too! i found a peter rice in dundalk voting lists..but unfortunately no ages given. 1832 voters list..peter rice>dealer>bridge street. 1842 voters list.peter rice>carrickedmond>dundalk upper. if i can link peter rice and his family to dundalk,i may go down to graveyard in foughart,co louth,where a lot of dundalk people are buried. what are the odds that i could be living about 12mls from where my relatives were buried!

It's a coincidence only, Elaine.

The Catherine Rice house servant I posted was in Louth, Lincolnshire, on the English census.

The Peter Rice night watchman I posted was born in Dundalk, Leinster, per the actual census record in the English census.

Oops, I was slow on that one -- she is with a Bridget Rice aged 19, born Ireland, "Genl. servant out of situation". (It was a lodging house, by the way -- several other residents were born in Ireland.) They could have been looking for work ... There are 6 Bridget Rice marriages 1861-1871, mostly in Lancashire (2 Liverpool, 1 Manchester)


The odds are better for you -- my ancestors all immigrated to Canada between 1906 and 1927 so I don't live anywhere near nowhere!

thnx janey..i really do appreciate all the help. but WHERE did you find catherine and bridget in census? i looked everywhere and didnt see em! xx

It is the 1851 census that Janey posted above catharine Rice 1837 Bridget is another lodger with her

jax

thnx a million jax..will look now.....thought i had done EVERY census,EVERY possible dates and EVERY posiible spelling!! obviously i missed this....only just ad mi glasses changed too,so cant use that as an excuse! lol

Just to follow up on that 1861 household with the absent husband/father,

Mary Ann Greatrex 15 granddaughter
(the last bit of the surname is hard to read on the original)

Marriages Jun 1838 ?
GREATOREX John Belper 19 299
RICE Gertrude Belper 19 299

It might be interesting to know whether they married each other and who Gertrude's father was, but this one is pretty tenuous.

Births Mar 1844
Greatorex Mary Ann Belper 19 461

But there are a couple of other possibles as well ... that one seems to be with Slater grandparents in 1851.

Aha, more likely marriage for parents? (well after birth ...)

Marriages Jun 1861
Diamond Mary Liverpool 8b 298
? Greatorex William Liverpool 8B 298
McIntyre Peter Liverpool 8b 298
? Rice Mary Ann Liverpool 8b 298

Can't find them in any census.


Oh, here we go, maybe -- Ancestry strikes again:

1851

Name: Mary Ann Greatorix
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Robert Kirkpatrick
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Kirkpatrick
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Manchester

Robert Kirkpatrick 36
Elizabeth Kirkpatrick 35
Thomas Kirkpatrick 9
John Gratorix 39 - lodger - born Derbyshire - widower
John Gratorix 11
George Greatorix 9
Mary Ann Greatorix 5 -- daughter of John Gratorix (as it says), not the Kirkpatricks

Which brings us back to John Greatorex who *may have* married Gertrude Rice. But from the 1841, I think he actually married the Hannah Wood in the list of brides.

Deaths Sep 1845
GREATOREX Hannah Manchester 20 381


All this is in aid of trying to figure out whether Margaret Rice with daughter Catherine was married to Peter Rice and had a daughter who married a Greatorex, producing granddaughter Mary Ann Greatorex, so you could see what that daughter's marriage certificate said for her father's name!

"hands up in the air"!! you've lost me....that grand-daughter being mary ann greatorex? i'll see if i can see any marriage cert or baptism for her. should be easier with an unusual name(on my other side i was searching for a smith!) you must have the patience of a saint janey! i find myself going into the same things over and over,forgetting where i saw things,etc i have loads of scrap papers with stuff jotted down,then cant remember wot it is! comes with old age i suppose..memory not quite so sharp!

Remember this on page 2:


This person in 1861 is the right age; father apparently living but not present:

Name: Catherine Rice
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Margaret Rice
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: St Barnabas
County/Island: Lancashire

Margaret Rice 57
Catherine Rice 23
Charles Brookes 80
Eliza Cardwell 64
Mary Ann Greatrex 15 granddaughter

(could match with Peter Rice the night watchman)


If the granddaughter's mother could be identified, and her marriage found, her father's name should be on the certificate -- to try to rule that family in or out.

I spent years ferreting out evidence when I was a refugee lawyer, figuring out all the possible angles to come at things from, so that's the angle there. ;)

remember seeing that on page 2....i must admit,i've read and re-read everything thats been put down! i am so humbled that people would go to such lengths to help me. am now looking re mary ann greatrex(will try the other spellings too) but i dont know how you find them--i put catherine rice 1837 in 1851 census and it said no matches!

what site were you using if its this one the spelling has to be correct?

catherine is spelt catharine on that census

we get our census's from ancestry they dont worry too much about spelling

jax