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Thanks Melanie! At least we've found out that my gg grandfather had been married before marrying my gg grandmother - very exciting stuff!

Also I don't quite understand what Idiot Pauper actually means; I.E. pauper very poor, idiot - can't read or write or retarded?

I have also looked for this couple coming back to England and can't find it or when John Perkins went out.

Ok understand. So they would have put that down even if John (or them) had been born in Cheshire?

Usually if a person is down as an idiotthey are backward in some way not just that they can't read or write as many could'nt in those years. Their details were taken down by an Enumerator and they could only record what they were told by the residence. Don't forget they did'nt celebrate birthdays either and many put there year of birth as a Christening year if they were baptised. Also people had two or three children baptised at the same time as it was cheaper.

I think that Kary Bourne was probaly from Worcs as perhaps was her dau but I can't find them on the 1841 census.

Sometimes people were travelling on the night of the census and so would'nt be on there, and some census are lost anyway.

If someone was at sea during a census they would be absent too.

Melanie, I'm having a great afternoon. This is all so interesting!

It looks as if John Perkins was in Aston, Erdington in the 1861 census. So he would have been 18 and would have gone to the States afterwards.

I haven't managed to follow this thread entirely, lol

but I wonder whether this might be the family in 1841

the surname is actually BORE on the image


Name: Mary Bare
Age: 69
Estimated birth year: abt 1772
Gender: Female
Where born: Worcestershire, England

Civil Parish: Ribbesford
Hundred: Doddingtree (Lower Division)
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Registration district: Kidderminster
Sub-registration district: Bewdley

John Bare 70 Besom maker
Mary Bare 69
Sarah Bare 30


right next door is this household

Name: William Bore
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1806
Gender: Male
Where born: Worcestershire, England

Civil Parish: Ribbesford
Hundred: Doddingtree (Lower Division)
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Registration district: Kidderminster
Sub-registration district: Bewdley

William Bore 35 Besom Maker
Elizabeth Bore 25
Sarah Bore 18
Mary Bore 2



and I wonder

Marriages Dec 1843
Bore Thomas Kidderminster 18 453
Perkins Charlotte Kidderminster 18 453


the only two names on the page


if John Perkins was born before the marriage

Another interesting lead I must say

well I have ruled out Charlotte and Thomas, this is them in 1851

Name: Charlotte Bove
Age: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1822
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Thomas Bove
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Bewdley, Worcestershire, England

Civil Parish: Far Forest
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Registration district: Kidderminster
Sub-registration district: Lower Mitton

Thomas Bove 32
Charlotte Bove 29
Thomas Bove 7
Mary Ann Bove 1


unless John was simply rejected by his stepfather and left with his maternal grandmother

But there is another possibility, lol


Marriages Dec 1838
Beech John Silk Kidderminster 18 498
Bourn Hannah Kidderminster 18 498 ??
BUTLER Richard Kidderminster 18 498
HARRIS Jane Kidderminster 18 498
MOLE Eliza Kidderminster 18 498
PERKINS Samuel Kidderminster 18 498 ??
STREET Ann Maria Kidderminster 18 498
WILLMOTT Samuel Kidderminster 18 498


I vote you keep your fingers crossed for John perkins marriage certificate to reveal all !


edit no not them either, but the Perkinses and Bournes certainly seem to be related to each other, lol .... this is them in 1851

so you never know, this info could come in handy for something


Name: Hannah Perkins
Age: 36
Estimated birth year: abt 1815
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Samuel Perkins
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Bewdley, Worcestershire, England

Civil Parish: Far Forest
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Registration district: Kidderminster
Sub-registration district: Lower Mitton

Samuel Perkins 40 Besom maker
Hannah Perkins 36
Mary Perkins 8
James Perkins 5


they are in the same census district as Thomas and Charlotte Bore in 1851, pages 2 and 9 of the census book, all of them and children born in Bewdley


edit oops sorry, I should have tried to follow the thread better, they've been counted out ? because of the close connection with the Perkins Bore couple I might leave them here just to keep the family together lol

Yes I will thanks! We've counted out Hannah Bourn and Samuel Perkins though. I'm wondering what he was doing in Aston Erdington in the 1861 census.

The marriage of John Perkins and Lydia Cleveland dos'nt have any parents names listed. Would you only get these if you bought that marriage cert?

I think so from what I've been told. I've ordered the marriage certificate of John Perkins and Lily Broadbent seeing as they are both my direct ascendants.

Is there a census for your John perkins other than the 1871 John Perkins with wife Lydia that shows your John Perkins born in Cheshire ?


......... edit ............
to answer my question .... in1881 he was born in Nantwich



that couple just seems like a red herring to me .........

especially now that I think Mary Bourne and Sarah Bourne from the 1851 census have been found in the 1841 census and the Bournes (Bores) and Perkinses in Bewdley seeming rather well established and interconnected .......

is there any record of Georgia Bourne after that 1871 census ?

the marriage in Michigan ........... there was no gold rush in Michigan but that could have been a tall tale ........... was in 1867 ............ Georgia Perkins in the 1871 census was born abt 1864 ......... possibly as Cleveland?

No sign of Lydia Perkins or Georgia after 1871.

Maryb

Mary Bare on 1841 census Ribbesford D 7 > 3.

also in Ribbesford D7 > 6 is Samuel Perkins 1818 Woodsman.
Dinah perkins 1817
John Perkins 1840.

Maryb

Personally, our family had never heard about a first marriage for my gg grandfather. As I said earlier my father recollects his father (John's grandson therefore) telling him that John had gone out to the States during the "gold rush" but that was all.

Other than that, we had always been told that the Perkins were a Worcestershire/Gloucestershire family and had been for a long time.

All we know is that John Perkins was a very hard man and that his son, my g grandfather fell out with him, and never spoke of him apart from him having been to America

Well here's an interesting Georgia Perkins in the 1880 USA census !

Census Place Morenci, Lenawee, Michigan

Walker H. DUNBAR Self M Male W 63 NY Retired Farmer MA MA
Maria M. DUNBAR Wife M Female W 62 NY Housekeeping VT CT
Georgia M. PERKINS Dau S Female W 16 MI Attending School >>> Father's birthplace ENG >>> birthplace MIchigan
Hannah SMITH Other W Female W 70 NH Retired Housekeeper MA MA


maybe someone can look at more details at ancestry.com ?


edit

the marriage was in Constantine Michigan

it is less than 100 miles due west of Lewanee according to Google Maps

that is in American terms they are quite close, lol

Makes you wonder what happened to the first wife. I have looked for a death of Lydia Perkins and dau Gorgia and can't find anything. Perhaps they went back to the US or died on board ship on the passage back?? It is all a mystery thats for sure. John could have even been still maried to Lydia when he married Lily. He may be down as a bachelor on his marriage to Lily but we know better, don't we.