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Mary,
I did wonder the same thing as you actually.

Mel, don't think so becaus in the records before if we go by the fact that his mother WAS Ellen Burrows then his father died not long after or around his birth. We found a death:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about John Perkins Name: John Perkins
Year of Registration: 1842
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Nantwich
County: Cheshire
Volume: 19
Page: 136
Unfortunately it doesn't say what age he was.

In any case John Perkins seems to have been brought up by his mother and step-father, Thomas Powell.

1851
Duddleston Aston D27 >1
Ellen Perkins born Cheshire widow
Thomas Perkins born Rock Worcetershire 1842
John Perkins, age 7 (so born in 1843)
Thomas Powell lodger.

Ellen Burrows Perkins then went on to marry Thomas Powell, the “lodger” and is living with him in Erdington in 1861 with the children. Thomas Powell (Brass Founder) and Ellen Perkins married West Brom J/F/M 1858 6b 609.

1861 Erdington D2 > 15
Thomas Powell born Shrewsbury 1817 (brass founder.)
Ellen Powell born CHESHIRE 1821
Ellen Powell Warwick 1857
Rowland Powell 1858.
John Perkins age 17, born Rock it says son in law (in those days ‘son in law’ meant stepson so this would be correct)

At this time John Perkins is a brass founder so I’m presuming that he was working for his step-father before leaving for the USA between 1861 and 1864 (if Georgia was indeed his daughter).

If John juniors father was a Timber Merchant I wonder if he went to the US and thats why John went there?

How do we know if Georgia was the daughter of John Perkins,if he didn't marry lydia until 1867 and Georgia was born 1864??

Maryb

Mary yes we could'nt find one before when we were looking as Benedicte said he thought the father would be John Perkins.

Just for ref.
1871 England Census
about John Perkins Name: John Perkins
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Lydia Perkins
Gender: Male
Where born: Nantwich, Cheshire, England
Civil parish: Sutton Coldfield
Ecclesiastical parish: Church
Town: Sutton Coldfield
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Sutton Coldfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 65
Household Members: Name Age
John Perkins 28 Butcher
Lydia Perkins 27 b US
Georgia Perkins 7 1864 b US
Ellen Davaney 16 Servant
William Fox 17 Burchers boy

So we know from this census that they came back from the US
after the birth of Georgia and she was in school in the states in 1880. Their passage back has to be between those years.

So now I'am trying to find John Perkins in or around Nantwich in 1841 a Timber Merchant,at the moment it is proving to be a but difficult.

Maryb

Dea,

The other details:

Marriage solemnized in the Parish Church in the Parish of Edgbaston in the County of Warwick

John Perkins,
Age: full,
Condition: a divorced person,
Profession: ? founder (I presume brass),
Residence: Edgbaston,
Father's name: John Perkins
Father's Profession: Timber merchant

Lily Broadbent
age: full
Condition: spinster
Profession:
Residence: Handworth
Father's name: William Henry Broadbent
Father's profession: Tobacconist

married in the presence of Frederick Reeves and Elizabeth Reeves.
I can't read the name of the person who married them

12th February 1879, quite funny because I ordered it on the 12th February 2011.

Hi Mel, nice to see you and Dea and Chrissiex back!

Here's a recap: Trying to find ancestors of my gg grandfather John Perkins

First surprise; it appears that my gg grandfather, John Perkins first got married to an American girl when out in the States. Big surprise for us since my father was very close to his grandfather who never mentioned a first wife nor half-sister. We assume he didn't know that his father had been married with a child before marrying his own mother. We do know that he had quite a reputation of a "ladies man" though!

John Perkins therefore married first to Lydia Cleveland on 24/11/1867 in in Constantine, St Joseph, Michigan . They had a daughter, Georgia, born 1864 in the US.
It says that he was a divorced person when he got married to my gg grandmother, Lily Broadbent, in February 1879 in King's Norton. He had 2 children with Lily, John Broadbent Perkins, my g grandfather, and Dorothy Leslie Perkins. How on earth he managed to divorce in those days is another question. As Chrissiex said, possibly on the US.

On the 1880 US census Georgia is back in the US aged 16 attending school in Lenawee, Michigan but I can't seem to find her mother anywhere unless she is using her maiden name in which case I've found a Lydia Cleveland in County Almshouse, Knoxville, Knox, Illinois who is noted as being widowed. There is also the possibility that she got remarried or died.

I now have information (found on John Perkins's and Lily Broadbent's marriage certificate) that John Perkins's father was also called John Perkins (this corresponds to the fact that I have been told that all this particular family had a son named John Perkins in every generation). He seems to have been married to Ellen Burrows from Nantwich, Cheshire. This is where I go from now; trying to find if this was indeed his wife and then going on to my ggg grandfather's parents.

What are the other details from the cert please?

Addresses, witnesses?

Dea x

Hi Benedicte,

I am under a different name now! I am still Melanie who posted on your thread.

So we had the right marriage to Lily Broardbent then.

I have read through out earlier postings but still have to go over them as they are not sinking in to my old brain!! at the moment.

It still bugs me to think I cannot find Lydia and Georgia's passage back to the US. I wonder if they went back under the name of Cleveland?

Mel

That's what I was thinking Chrissiex, that Lydia must have got divorced in the US.
I've looked up about divorce in those times and I can't see how it would've happened in the UK. Divorce legislation introduced in 1857 allowed for a man to divorce his wife for adultery, but a woman could only divorce if adultery were accompanied by cruelty. Divorces were very hard to attain because there was no civil divorce. Private Acts were inconvenient and extremely costly. The poor had no way to attempt divorce under these circumstances. Just 322 divorces were approved prior to the passing of the 1857 Divorce and Matrimonial Causes Act. Subsequent to this Act passing, divorce rates rose to about 369 in 1890. The Perkins, as far as I know, were definately not way up on the social ladder. In fact as my father has told me, they were extremely proud of their connection with the Broadbent family who were 'middle class'.

divorced ! bite my tongue, lol

your ancestors were higher on the social ladder than mine I fear !

...... although with the bankruptcies in mine, I suppose they could have afforded divorces instead of just committing bigamy ... heck, maybe that is what happened with a disappearing great-aunt after all ..... her uncle-in-law was even a timber merchant ......


checked at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk but there seems to be no record

possibly Lydia got the divorce in the United States

Well done Benedicte,

I will have a read through the thread again and see where we are up to now - I am afraid I have lost track a little!

See you later - this could take some time (tee hee)!

Dea x

Hello everyone! I've received the wedding certificate of John Perkins and Lily Broadbent , February 1879, stating that he was divorced (so Lydia did exist and obviously must have gone back to America). His father's name, as I thought it would be: John Perkins, a timber merchant. I'm therefore beginning to get there!

Mary you could be right here.

I have looked up the death of John Perkins c1820 and here it is.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about John Perkins Name: John Perkins
Year of Registration: 1842
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Nantwich
County: Cheshire
Volume: 19
Page: 136

Shame it dos'nt say how old he was.

I have looked on IGI for the marriage but no luck on there.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about John Perkins Name: John Perkins
Year of Registration: 1841
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Nantwich
County: Cheshire
Volume: 19
Page: 125

*** Ellen Burrows 1841 Nantwich Cheshire
Thomas Howell 1841 Nantwich Cheshire
*** John Perkins 1841 Nantwich Cheshire
Mary Sandford 1841 Nantwich Cheshire
John Shone 1841 Nantwich Cheshire


This is the one to poss Ellen Burrows but there are only two girls and three boys.

Mary and Chrissiex, just logged on today and thank you again! Now this lead sounds much much more logical and is beginning to explain the Cheshire Worcestershire connection. We knew that there were brass founders in the family and that John Broadbent Perkins was a brass founder. Obviously John Perkins must have started off as a brass founder working for his step-father before becoming a butcher?
I shall wait for John Perkins and Lily Broadbent's marriage certificate but I'm pretty sure now that it will say that John's father was also called John (as we have always been told in the family that the each generation had a John Perkins). I think the marriage between John Perkins and Ellen Burrows will be correct one but again will wait for the first certificate before asking for that one.

Maybe marriage John Perkins married Ellen Burrows in Nantwich Cheshire J/F/M 1841 V19 P125.

Maryb.

just for info, 'son-in-law' means 'stepson' so the 1861 notation does make sense, he is the stepson of Thomas Powell, son of Ellen Perkins Powell

It was said that John was in Erdington 1861.
Lily Broadbent with parents in Erdington D4 > 1 in 1871.

1861 Erdington D2 > 15
Thomas Powell born Shrewsbury 1817 (brass founder.)
Ellen Powell born CHESHIRE 1821
Ellen Powell warwick 1857
Rowland 1858.
John Perkins age 7 born Rock it says son in law (Wrong)

1851
Duddleston Aston D27 >1
Ellen Perkins born Cheshire widow
Thomas Perkins born Rock Worcetershire 1842
John age 7
Thomas Powell lodger.

Thomas Powell (Brass Founder) and Ellen Perkins married West Brom J/F/M 1858 6b 609.

Roland a( Brass Founder) married Caroline Margeret Scott and in 1901 they were in Olton Solihull,this is where John Broadbent Perkins (a Brass Founder) son of John and Lily lived in 1911.

Thomas powell died between 1871 and 1881 as Ellen is widowed with son Rowland in 1881,Roland employing 24 men at the time.

Maryb

What a mystery!
I have to go for now, but I'll be back searching in the next few days. Thank so you much again for your help.