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Look what I found in the National Archives.


Records of the Supreme Court of Judicature and related courts
Division within J Records of the Family Division and predecessors
J 77 Court for Divorce and Matrimonial Causes, later Supreme Court of Judicature: Divorce and Matrimonial Causes Files
Subseries within J 77
J 77/1231

Record Summary
Scope and content

Divorce Court File: 7474.
Appellant: Dora Georgina Panzer.
Respondent: Herman Roland Panzer.
Type: Wife's petition for divorce [wd].
Covering dates 1916
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years
Held by
The National Archives, Kew


Yes yes yes!

I mean, not bigamy. But divorce. Almost as good. ;)


So Hermann Roland Panzer married Dora Georgina Rossiter 1912.
Son Basil T Panzer was born 1915.
Dora divorced Hermann 1916.
Hermann married Rosa 1917.

William George Roland Palmer and/or "Pansie" was born 1919.

Hermann's middle name was Roland.
Hermann's father's middle name was George.

It isn't a closed link in the chain yet, but it's a danged strong partial one. ;)

Two people here at GR have Dora Rossiter 1882 in their trees.

And dang, I thought I'd checked it before -- I think I had "Cecil" in my head: the same two people have Basil Panzer 1915 in their trees.

Well yikes -- I thought I'd checked *that*: the same two people have Herman Panzer 1889 in their trees.

And someone else has Carl Panzer 1829 in his tree.

PMed contact info for [Basil Panzer Jr.?]

!!

Google Basil Panzer!


An Improved Electromagnetic Sphygmograph
BASIL I. PANZER, FRANCIS MARSH BALDWIN, FRED INGALL, and JOHN F. HEIL
Science 17 October 1947: 376.
PDF »|


Basil I Panzer is the person on the electoral roll 2001-2007, who has a current telephone listing.

Now, that Basil publishing in 1947 has to be the Basil born in 1915, not his son.

So I think the "Basil T" in the GRO is another of those misreads.


But this could be a son ... or a coincidence ... If it's a son, it could be who the telephone listing is ... Yes, that does seem to be the case; Basil 1915 was a scientist, and the younger Basil (who may or may not be related) is a psychotherapist.


Resolving Traumatic Memories: Metaphors and Symbols in Psychotherapy.
co-written with Basil Panzer
(Irvington, New York, 1989)
- Hard Cover book
- 2 x audio cassettes
NOTE: The book has been translated into German.


(Panzer is a London based psychologist who supervises psychotherapists and, in private practice, specializes in brief, solution oriented psychotherapy and hypnotherapy. Fluent in several languages, he treats French, German, Italian and American as well as English patients. In 1989, Irvington Publishers, Inc. published his book, Resolving Traumatic Memories: Metaphors and Symbols in Psychotherapy.) -- B.I. (Basil) Panzer, Ph.D

http://genforum.genealogy.com/panzer/messages/8.html

William Christian Panzer born London 1877, parents Hermann C. Panzer (born Germany c.1829) and Barbara Allen Strathearn (born Scotland 1847) married London 1875 also Carl Hermann Panzer (born Germany C1831)wife Amelia Sophia Tolle married London 1869.

A message from 2000. Carl Hermann Panzer was the father of Carl/Charles George Panzer, the father of Hermann Roland Panzer.

See the reply from Pamela. The person asking the question was singularly unforthcoming, but Pamela is descended from William.

Hermann Christian Panzer 1829 and Carl Hermann Panzer 1831 would be brothers, as I reckon. But that's just a calculation.

If so, William Christian Panzer 1877 and Charles/Carl George Panzer, father of Hermann Roland Panzer, would be first cousins, although very different in age.

Thank you for all the input as it is making our theory that Herma Roland Panzer and Armyn Roland Palmer are one and the same - although don't think we will be able to actually prove that.

A couple of other threads we would apprecuate help/advice on following, Bill knows as he believes he visited Armyn Roland in prison for stealing a typewriter, although seems quite a harsh punishment.
Armyn also married a lady called Sylvia Madge in around the early mid 50's as Bill recalls the wedding and my husband did know Sylvia. We don't have her maiden name and although we have searched index after index unless we are missing the obvious we cannot find the registration.

Can you help with prison trail or possible 3rd wedding thread?

Can anybody tell me the best way to locate prison records for Armyn Roland Palmer

Might Sylvia have been a fair bit younger than Armyn?


Name: Sylvia Madge Palmer
Birth Date: 12 Jan 1908
Death Registration Month/Year: Feb 1998
Age at death (estimated): 90
Registration district: Sutton
Inferred County: Surrey
Register number: B10B
District and Subdistrict: 2541B
Entry Number: 298


One would think it's a fairly unusual combination of given names, not to mention combined with Palmer.

Births Mar 1908
Horne Sylvia Madge Thanet 2a 1093


No one at GR seems to have her in their tree.

Goodness, you never know -- one of my gr-grandmothers was a Horne from Kent ... !


I would think it likely that Sylvia had been married before marrying Armyn, since she would been in her 40s at the time of the marriage.

Lorraine, have you considered contacting the two GR members who have Hermann Panzer 1889 and Basil Panzer 1915 in their trees?

They could be distantly related (say, descended from a sibling of Dora Rossiter or some such), but they might actually be descendants of Hermann via his first marriage/son. Why not inquire?

I have taken the advice, and sent a message to the two members, so lets see what that uncovers - so thanks again for the help.

We have now searched for the death of Rosa Rodgers, as Rodgers, Panzer, Panser and Pansie and can not find her anywhere, we have found a Rosa Rodgers who died in 1984 in Sheffield who according to the index record was born in Mar 1885, a year out for our Rosa, but scary given that we live in Sheffield, and Bill was only ever told his mum died so it may not be factually correct!!

Any tips on closing this loop?

Can you help with how we can locate records for Armyn's prison stretch, as we are not sure where to start?

I don't know zip about mlitary records, I'm afraid, at least not after WWI.

Try searching this site (go first to Boards Summary and use the search box) for, say,

military records

and browse what you get. Best I can do, I'm afraid. There should be threads on Tips or Records with info.

EVIE Re your post: 8th January 2009 22:36
"I'm not quite sure how these things work, but can the original record -- the thing with the volume and page number -- be checked?"

The record at the GRO (which is what the GRO index with its "Hackney - 1b - 763" type reference refers to) is not the original record. The original record will be at Hackney (or whichever office now holds the Hackney records given any subsequent redistricting). The GRO holds a copy, and there are ocassionally differences in the two records.

Sorry, mgnv, I wasn't clear. Yes, that's exactly what I meant in fact --

"The original record will be at Hackney (or whichever office now holds the Hackney records given any subsequent redistricting). The GRO holds a copy, and there are ocassionally differences in the two records."

-- the original record at Hackney. Ta!

The search continues.
Can anybody help with the search for Rosa Rodgers death, we now know as we have recieved the marriage certificate that Rosa Rodgers of Blackstock Road Hackney, married Herman Roland Panser, although the transcript error makes it look like Pawser.

We know or believe we know that Rosa died around the mid 20's, although that is the story HRP told Bill, that his mother died of consumption.
Secondly HRP had lied on his marriage certificate to Rosa as he claimed to be a widower, when we know he was divorced - but stigma I guess, what we cannot find is any record of her death, or any divorce which allowed HRP to marry Sylvia in 1951, albeit as Palmer at that time - we are waiting for that certifcate.

Doesn't answer why the father ended up with the child other than it was correct that mum was ill, and maybe she threw him out when she found out he had lied !!!!

The links are coming together but there are blanks like Rosa's death which we are struggling to find.

Any tips greatly appreciated

I know you're more concerned with later stuff, but here's some unposted older stuff:


1871 England Census
Civil Parish: St Leonard Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 55 Clifton St
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub registration district: Holywell
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household schedule number: 155

Christian H Panzer 42 Germany Head M Brick Seller
Barbara Panzer 23 Scotland Wife M
Louisa Panzer 2 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Daughter

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 439; Folio: 55; Page: 26; GSU roll: 823358.


1851 Scotland Census
Parish Number: 395
Civil Parish: Tibbermore
County: Perthshire
Address: Castle House
ED: 3
Page: 8
Household schedule number: 23
Roll: CSSCT1851_82

Agnes Strathearn 27 Madderty, Perthshire Head
Jessie Ann Hood 8 Charleshade Dundee, Forfarshire Daughter Scholar
Helen Strathearn 5 Tibbermore, Perthshire Daughter Scholar
Barbara Strathearn 3 Tibbermore, Perthshire Daughter
Margaret Strathearn 11 Mo Tibbermore, Perthshire Daughter

Incidentally, 1891 pob=Huntingtower PER.
Groome: "Huntingtower, a village and an ancient castle in Tibbermore parish, Perthshire. ..."
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/gazetteer/


1861 Scotland Census
Registration Number: 457
Registration district: Strathmiglo
Civil Parish: Strathmiglo
County: Fife
Address: Bellfield
ED: 3
Household schedule number: 130
Page: 24
Roll: CSSCT1861_60

Isabella Scott 56 Ceres, Fifeshire Head
Barbara Strathearn 13 Perthshire Servant Domestic Servant


1861 Scotland Census
Registration Number: 445
Registration district: Leuchars
Civil Parish: Leuchars
County: Fife
Address: South Cottage
ED: 4
Household schedule number: 13
Page: 2
Roll: CSSCT1861_59

William Smith 27 Collessie, Fife Head Ploughman
Margaret Smith 24 Kingsbarns, Fife Wife
Alexander Smith 1 Kilconquhar, Fife Son
Margaret Strathern 10 Huntuytower, Perth Servant Domestic Servant


1861 Scotland Census
Registration Number: 394A
Registration district: Scone
Civil Parish: Scone
County: Perthshire
Address: Mid Lane
ED: 1
Household schedule number: 342
Page: 53
Roll: CSSCT1861_52

David Hill 68 Crail, Fifeshire Head Retired Farmer
Isabella Hill 65 Crail, Fifeshire Sister
Mary Hill 63 Crail, Fifeshire Sister
Helen Strathern 15 Fibbermare, Perthshire Servant Domestic Serv


1861 Scotland Census
Registration Number: 420
Registration district: Cupar
Civil Parish: Cupar
Town: Cupar
County: Fife
Address: 87 Bonnygate
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 124
Page: 23
Roll: CSSCT1861_54

William Finlayson 52 Dunfermline, Fifeshire Head Baker Emply 2 Men
Agnes Finlayson 38 Mukgurk, Perthshire Wife Shop Keeper
Jessie Wood 18 Dundee, Forfarshire Stepdaughter House Servant
William Finlayson 5 Perth, Perthshire Son Scholar
James Finlayson 2 Scone, Perthshire Son


I never found anyone mentioned above in SCT 1871, and I'm not sure that the following is relevant:


1841 Scotland Census
Civil Parish: Perth
County: Perthshire
Address: High Street Perthshire, Scotland

Agnes Wood 17 Perthshire, Scotland
Robert Wood 14 Perthshire, Scotland Ap Tailor

Source Citation: Parish: Perth; ED: 8A; Page: 25; Line: 510; Roll: CSSCT1841_56-0315; Year: 1841.

http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html
This will give info about getting Army records as any after 1920 are still with MOD

thank you mgnv, the older stuff is much appreciated. We have managed to determine with GR assistance that Christian H Panzer, or Herman Christian Panzer as appears in some places is the cousin of our potential grandfather of my father in law, Charles(Carl) George Panzer - so these other relatives are greatly appreciated.

Thanks Janice for the tip on military records as well.

the search continues for Rosa........ going to try another post to see if that throws any other answers

Oh, bad idea - another post. Really bad idea. All the work that has been done here needs to be available to anyone looking for answers. It's a virtual certainty that anyone trying to help will want to know the background details, and will go looking for them if they aren't readily available, thus wasting time.

Please at least put the link to the new post in this thread, and the link to this post in the new thread, if you have already started it.

New thread re Rosa Rodgers:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1121499