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Lorraine - Thanks for the info.

Evie - Answering an old question - there would still be an entry in the register, with both the GRO and the local RO, but, strictly speaking, the only info they supposed to release is that provided on a certificate, and that only with the purchase of a cert., so you'ld never get to see it. However, if you phone the local RO, sometimes they will be a little more forthcoming in circumstances like this. Of course, if the marr took place in a church, rather than the rego office, there'ld also be a parish record, and maybe a bishops transcript too.

Scotland handles corrections to the register slightly differently from England, recording the changes in a special register, and combining them if you ask for an official cert. However, for older certs, you can buy unofficial images of the register entries at 90% off, so this is what most people buy (surprise, eh). They have a (free) example of a bigamous marriage and its correction at:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=554&403

Interesting - and thanks for the update!

Just to let you know, we have received the marriage certificate, even though the marriage a bigamous one.

It has made interesting reading and contains enough clues to confirm that it was indeed Herman up to tricks!
Sarah Ann was a 30 year old spinster on the certificate and resident in Hornsey.

It feels like we have exhausted all avenues now as we cannot find the answers to why Rosa and Herman split up but never divorced, and why another name change!!

Thanks again for all your help

L x

Thanks, mgnv -- that was exactly what I thought!

The reason being: there was no marriage, so there can be no certificate of marriage. Issuing a certificate would amount to providing evidence of a non-fact.

Now, is there an original record that could still be consulted directly, at the district registration office in question? I think I asked that question just recently elsewhere and you answered it. ;) I guess the question here is: what would it show?

I feel EvieBeavie should be awarded "Sleuth of 2009""

It's my belief that if someone got convicted of bigamy, then that would be reported to the GRO and they will not issue a m.cert for any but the first (non-bigamous) marriage.

Thanks EvieBeavie, we will continue the search for answers and have ordered the marriage certificate of Sarah Ann and Roland, so should be here in a few days.

I guess we now need to try and find out what happened between his marriage to Rosa in 1917 and his marriage to Sylvia in 1951.

We now know Rosa did not die until 1949, so maybe that is why he waited, but we also know at some point in the 1920's he was in prison again - is this for another bigamous marriage whilst married to Rosa, and may explain why Rosa left him and went back home..... but why leave the child with the bigamous father?? unless too much shame for the Rodgers family---- will we ever know and where do you begin searching for man who just changed his name to avoid being found out!

I don't know how to acces prison records is it possible yet ?

Why did Herman Roland Panzer become Armyn Roland Palmer and that is the loop we cannot close, as we have found no reference to Armyn other than his death certificate!!

1911
PANZER CHARLES GEORGE M 1858 age 53 Islington London
PANZER MARIA F 1858 age 53
PANZER HERMAN ROLAND M 1890 age 21

Can you get a marriage certificate for a bigamous marriage?

I seem to recall reading here once that it's problematic - if the problem was reported to the GRO, I guess.

I do hope it isn't!

If that age was accurate --

Sarah A Ingram aged 48 who died in the last quarter of 1917

Deaths Dec 1917
Ingram Sarah A 48 Romford 4a 491

-- she was born in 1869 or late in 1868.

There isn't really a birth for a Sarah Ann Greenaway to match that -- two in Mar quarter 1868, not in the vicinity.

I wonder whether Greenaway was a first married surname? The marriage certificate should help.

The one who died in 1919 would have been a little old to be his wife, though? ... unless wealthy widows were his thing. ;)

Just for info, the marriage:

Marriages Sep 1915
Greenaway Sarah A Ingram Islington 1b 947
Ingram Roland Greenaway Islington 1b 947

No births with those surnames.

Yes yes yes! My wild theory was right!

I call it genealogy by psychic flash. Sometimes I just *know*. ;)

The bigamous marriage was what we call "void ab initio".

It was never a marriage. It didn't have to be annulled, because it was null. It looked like a marriage, but it wasn't. Because someone who is married can't get married.

This seems like the best place for it. Let's have a read ...

Sorry if I'm getting this wrong again and using the wrong thread, but got even more information and this family mystery gets ever more interesting!!

As in this thread we found that Herman Roland Panzer married Dora Rossiter in 1912 and divorced in 1916 - well guess what we have the divorce papers and the reason for the divorce was the fact that he was in prison for " bigamy and adultery" as he had married whilst married to Dora.

On the 19th August 1915 he married Sarah Ann Greenaway, but as Roland Ingram. What we don't know is what happened to this,

Question
If there is a bigamous marriage, is the second marriage automatically annulled?
Is there a way of finding out if annulled?

On a further note we have found a Sarah A Ingram aged 48 who died in
the last quarter of 1917 - which may explain why when he married Rosa Rodgers in 1919 he was registered as widower!

Any help in locating what happened to Sarah Ann and Roland Ingram would be appreciated - we are going to order their wedding certificate to see if age fits with the Sarah that died at 48 in 1919 - but that death was exceptionally close to his marriage to Rosa as that was in December 1919!

We now have Rosa's death certificate and she didn't die until 1949, and her father closed alot of loops for us as he had her down as Rosa Pansie otherwise known as Panzer and married to Herman Roland Pansie otherwise known as Panzer - smacks of bitterness and makes me wonder whether there maybe other marriages and stints in prison

I think this will make a book

L xxx

New thread re Rosa Rodgers:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1121499

Oh, bad idea - another post. Really bad idea. All the work that has been done here needs to be available to anyone looking for answers. It's a virtual certainty that anyone trying to help will want to know the background details, and will go looking for them if they aren't readily available, thus wasting time.

Please at least put the link to the new post in this thread, and the link to this post in the new thread, if you have already started it.

thank you mgnv, the older stuff is much appreciated. We have managed to determine with GR assistance that Christian H Panzer, or Herman Christian Panzer as appears in some places is the cousin of our potential grandfather of my father in law, Charles(Carl) George Panzer - so these other relatives are greatly appreciated.

Thanks Janice for the tip on military records as well.

the search continues for Rosa........ going to try another post to see if that throws any other answers

http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html
This will give info about getting Army records as any after 1920 are still with MOD

I know you're more concerned with later stuff, but here's some unposted older stuff:


1871 England Census
Civil Parish: St Leonard Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 55 Clifton St
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub registration district: Holywell
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household schedule number: 155

Christian H Panzer 42 Germany Head M Brick Seller
Barbara Panzer 23 Scotland Wife M
Louisa Panzer 2 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Daughter

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 439; Folio: 55; Page: 26; GSU roll: 823358.


1851 Scotland Census
Parish Number: 395
Civil Parish: Tibbermore
County: Perthshire
Address: Castle House
ED: 3
Page: 8
Household schedule number: 23
Roll: CSSCT1851_82

Agnes Strathearn 27 Madderty, Perthshire Head
Jessie Ann Hood 8 Charleshade Dundee, Forfarshire Daughter Scholar
Helen Strathearn 5 Tibbermore, Perthshire Daughter Scholar
Barbara Strathearn 3 Tibbermore, Perthshire Daughter
Margaret Strathearn 11 Mo Tibbermore, Perthshire Daughter

Incidentally, 1891 pob=Huntingtower PER.
Groome: "Huntingtower, a village and an ancient castle in Tibbermore parish, Perthshire. ..."
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/gazetteer/


1861 Scotland Census
Registration Number: 457
Registration district: Strathmiglo
Civil Parish: Strathmiglo
County: Fife
Address: Bellfield
ED: 3
Household schedule number: 130
Page: 24
Roll: CSSCT1861_60

Isabella Scott 56 Ceres, Fifeshire Head
Barbara Strathearn 13 Perthshire Servant Domestic Servant


1861 Scotland Census
Registration Number: 445
Registration district: Leuchars
Civil Parish: Leuchars
County: Fife
Address: South Cottage
ED: 4
Household schedule number: 13
Page: 2
Roll: CSSCT1861_59

William Smith 27 Collessie, Fife Head Ploughman
Margaret Smith 24 Kingsbarns, Fife Wife
Alexander Smith 1 Kilconquhar, Fife Son
Margaret Strathern 10 Huntuytower, Perth Servant Domestic Servant


1861 Scotland Census
Registration Number: 394A
Registration district: Scone
Civil Parish: Scone
County: Perthshire
Address: Mid Lane
ED: 1
Household schedule number: 342
Page: 53
Roll: CSSCT1861_52

David Hill 68 Crail, Fifeshire Head Retired Farmer
Isabella Hill 65 Crail, Fifeshire Sister
Mary Hill 63 Crail, Fifeshire Sister
Helen Strathern 15 Fibbermare, Perthshire Servant Domestic Serv


1861 Scotland Census
Registration Number: 420
Registration district: Cupar
Civil Parish: Cupar
Town: Cupar
County: Fife
Address: 87 Bonnygate
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 124
Page: 23
Roll: CSSCT1861_54

William Finlayson 52 Dunfermline, Fifeshire Head Baker Emply 2 Men
Agnes Finlayson 38 Mukgurk, Perthshire Wife Shop Keeper
Jessie Wood 18 Dundee, Forfarshire Stepdaughter House Servant
William Finlayson 5 Perth, Perthshire Son Scholar
James Finlayson 2 Scone, Perthshire Son


I never found anyone mentioned above in SCT 1871, and I'm not sure that the following is relevant:


1841 Scotland Census
Civil Parish: Perth
County: Perthshire
Address: High Street Perthshire, Scotland

Agnes Wood 17 Perthshire, Scotland
Robert Wood 14 Perthshire, Scotland Ap Tailor

Source Citation: Parish: Perth; ED: 8A; Page: 25; Line: 510; Roll: CSSCT1841_56-0315; Year: 1841.

The search continues.
Can anybody help with the search for Rosa Rodgers death, we now know as we have recieved the marriage certificate that Rosa Rodgers of Blackstock Road Hackney, married Herman Roland Panser, although the transcript error makes it look like Pawser.

We know or believe we know that Rosa died around the mid 20's, although that is the story HRP told Bill, that his mother died of consumption.
Secondly HRP had lied on his marriage certificate to Rosa as he claimed to be a widower, when we know he was divorced - but stigma I guess, what we cannot find is any record of her death, or any divorce which allowed HRP to marry Sylvia in 1951, albeit as Palmer at that time - we are waiting for that certifcate.

Doesn't answer why the father ended up with the child other than it was correct that mum was ill, and maybe she threw him out when she found out he had lied !!!!

The links are coming together but there are blanks like Rosa's death which we are struggling to find.

Any tips greatly appreciated