General Chat

I think this might be another child of Charles Mackleworth and Alice Harmes., and that the mother's maiden name had probably been mistranscribed from the written entry in the original register.

I can't find any other Mackleworth-Haines children, nor a Mackleworth-Haines marriage to account for her. She fits between the last two known children of Charles and Alice, and, as she appears to have died as an infant, may have been lost to family recollection.

Births Jun 1924 Mackleworth Marguerite F Haines Bethnal G. 1c 188

Deaths Dec 1925 Mackleworth Margaret F 1 Lambeth 1d 323

The last two known children:

Births Sep 1921 Mackleworth Frederick W Harmes Bethnal G. 1c 203

Births Dec 1925 Mackleworth Ivy L Harmes Bethnal G. 1c 170

If you're out there, Rose, or anyone else, I'd love some feedback as to if anyone else thinks this is likely.

Hi Kucinta, I think that looks very likely .
:-)

Thanks Rose - I thought so, but then wondered if I were overeaching .

Needed the reassurance... :-)

That looks good. There were other children born that Mick didn't know about because they died young.

Andy

Thanks Andy - I remembered you'd found a couple of 'unknown' children previously, and Charles' military papers that Rose discovered had included a cert for one of them.

I'm blaming Mick tonight ;-) I mentioned to him that I hadn't much of a tree on here and he was surprised I think, so it spurred me into putting some of my paper work to use and added a few names to my tree...and then would you believe got stuck lol and ended up hunting for MY missing people instead of Mick's ;-)

Still fascinated as to where John and Sarah Mackelworth senior went!

Kucinta you've done a cracking job with the Pointers :-)

Thanks again Rose :-)

But I have to agree, to crack the fate of John & Sarah senior would be SOOO satisfying!

Has the 1911 already been put on here? or have I just missed seeing it lol.

If not

1911 England Census about Alice Mackleworth
Name: Alice Mackleworth
Age in 1911: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Kingston upon Thames, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Kingston on Thames
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address: 3 Florence Road, Kingston-On-Thames
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 9
Estimated Marriage Year: 1902
Registration District: Kingston
Registration District Number: 40
Sub-registration District: Kingston
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Household Schedule Number: 294
Piece: 3520
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Mackleworth 40
Alice Mackleworth 29
Charles John 8
Alice May Victoria 6
Henry John 4
Albert Edward Under 1 M

add

Deaths Mar 1915 (>99%)
Mackleworth Alice M V 9 Bethnal G. 1c 225

Deaths Dec 1934 (>99%)
Mackleworth Albert 24 Bethnal G. 1c 131

Kucinta, Gobsmacked again.

Frederick is my natural father and Ivy is my aunt - the actual woman who handed me over to my adoptive mother in 1948. Ivy shipped off to Australia in the 70's with her daughter Shirl who is the 1st cousin I refer to on here frequently.

Any rumours I might inject into the proceedings I got either from my natural mother or from Shirl because I have had no contact with any family member at all. David Rive, my first cousin once removed (grandson of uncle Bob) was the first blood relative I have ever been in contact with on the Mackleworth side. Shirl was the second.

All these people are on my tree.

HI Mick,

Andy had posted Frederick and Ivy's births before, I just reposted them in order to set the birth of Margaret/Marguerite in the context of the other sibs, to help see if it 'fitted'.

Rose, I have seen the 1911 census; it's in my keepsafe thing. Alice May V. I found last night and went to bed feeling quite sad as she was only 9.

As I find these things I put them on the tree. It updates in real time!! (When I work out what to put and where!)

The two things I am keen to discover are - yes - John and Sarah Snr. Where on earth are they? And Charles proper dob. I don't why, but that is bugging me and I might have to send off for the cert.

Also, I have moved my interest in Keoghoe up in front of Stroulger. The records for the Stroulgers will always be there but my living relations on the Keoghoe side might not.

I hate to ask, but what dob do we have for Charles?

edit scrap that...but I just came across a different spelling lol and thought for a minute it was him... time for bed I think :-)

You (Rose) found a Q1 1870 birth reg under a variant of the surname.

Births Mar 1870
Mackelwroth Charles Bethnal Green 1c 217


He was aged 1 in census 1871.

Military records have him as 8th Dec 1871.

Death ref has him as aged 65 in 1936.

Deaths Sep 1936 Mackleworth Charles 65 Romford 4a 403

My bet is born Dec 8th 1869.

Thanks Kucinta it's ok I was just having a mad moment lol, it was the other Charles I was looking at .

Going to lie down in a darkened room ;-)

My quest for software to search and produce e.g. Charles' date of birth, appears to have been used by Kucinta.

How did you produce them here in one place Kucinta? Did you manually look through all the different sources? Cos if you did, you are quick!

That is the perfect example for why I want organise and search software. To produce info like that at the drop of hat.

Remembered most of it, nipped back and c&p ed the birth ref Rose had found, & nipped over to freebmd to get the exact death ref to insert.

Totally non techy, so no software search and retrieve mechanism, just my fumbling fingers on the keyboard! :-(

Well, that was impressive. There are a hundred posts. I wouldn't know where to look in this thread quite apart from military records and nipping over to free BMD. You did that, and typed out the reply in 3 minutes!! Awesome!!

I've found the organise and search software I need - it's called Kucinta :-D

Aw, shucks, where's the blush icon when you need it?!

Seriously though, it looks like Rollo gave you some excellent pointers on another thread re software for managing your information.

But when it comes to help finding the info in the first place, and chewing the cud over the family conumdrums that invariably arise - then you have the pleasure of using the boards :-)

Though Sarah and John senior still aren't co-operating :-|

If Microsoft are watching this, they will probably make a bid for you! I remember years ago using a database software called Cardbox - it did all this kind of thing - I am wondering if MS took it over and called it Access ? MS used to buy all successful small company software - Publisher was another.

I have just cut and pasted all the records on here into Word - just to make a start - 25 pages of a Word docment - that's without formatting of course.

I now have countless pm's with bundles of info to stick in. I will have to think about what to do with the original records - the census stuff is wonderful to read. I want them offline too - I have downloaded most of them.

FINALLY, the marriage certificate of Grandfather Charles has arrived.

Married in St Lukes Church in Kingston, Surrey on 7 July 1902 (one of the dates on the military record). Charles is shown as 29 ! Yes, 29, suggesting 1872 or 1873 as date of birth. Alice is shown as 20. So Charles may well have knocked a year or three off his actual birthday. I don't really want to lay out £9.25 just for the correct birthday but it is bugging me.

Charles is shown as Bachelor and Alice (no middle name btw) as spinster. Charles is shown as Cabinet Maker which we have seen before. The 'residence at time of Marriage' - 41 Seymour Cottages for BOTH of them. Can't read the name of the road but I am sure it appears somewhere else.

Charles father is shown as John Mackleworth and Alice's as Henry Harmes, which is nice. John Mackleworth is shown as a cigar maker (which I think we knew) and Henry is shown as what looks like, a labourer.

Lastly, the witnesses - Eliza Jane Harmes, Edith Adams, Harry Harmes and one Charles Gascoyne, who appears as living with them in the 1911 census. Only Edith Adams is not there.

Every spelling of Mackleworth is the 'right' one i.e the modern one for this family although I bet there are variations in relatives - Mackelworth seems very common.

mick