General Chat

Dear Rose you take my breath away!I

I am hitting Charles military records and just came upon this (I am writing it as a narrative for my cousin in Oz) - From 16.12.1902 it shows father and mother as dead.(The missing John and Sarah Mackelworth Snr). It gives details of his marriage on 7th July 1902 Kingston on Thames to Alice Harmes spinster. Witnesses shown as Eliza J Harmes and Harry Howerd.

Cousin has sent me a pic of Alice's gravemarker (not a stone) and it shows Alice Lizzette Mackleworth 1881-1971.

You are right with Kingston. If figures a lot in Charles records and that was because the barracks were there. I think the marriage you show is them.

Pulling it together from what you have put above (I hope) - Alice Lizzette (or Lissette) Pointer was born in 1881 in Kingston. In 1891, her mother Eliza Jane PoYnter (born c1861), married Henry Harmes. Which explains why Alice L Harmes married Charles in the name of Harmes in July 1902 although she was born a Pointer.

So it looks like at the moment that Alice Lizzette was born out of wedlock unless we can find Eliza Jane marrying a guy called Pointer (Poynter)? Does all that sound right?

Well that spelling takes the prize so far I think Mackelworleth and it 'should' be Mackleworth or Mackelworth.

Mind you I think putting an s in and in another variation a 'u' is also pushing for first prize.

Looks like Alice was definitely born out of wedlock, and Rose is right in that Harry/Henry Chapman Harmes was married before, as he is claiming to be a widower here.


"England Marriages, 1538–1973 "

Name: Harry Chapman Harmes
Birth Date: 1850
Birthplace:
Age: 41
Spouse's Name: Eliza Jane Poynter
Spouse's Birth Date: 1860
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age: 31
Event Date: 08 Aug 1891
Event Place: St. Luke'S, Kingston-Upon-Thames, Surrey, England
Father's Name: William Harmes
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name: Stephen Poynter<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status: Widowed<<<<<
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status: Single<<<<<
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M02017-9
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 1278891
Reference ID: item 9 p 24

Confirmation of the marriage details in 1902:

"England Marriages, 1538–1973 "

Name: Charles Mackleworth
Birth Date: 1873
Birthplace:
Age: 29
Spouse's Name: Alice Harmes
Spouse's Birth Date: 1882
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age: 20
Event Date: 11 Jul 1902
Event Place: St. Luke'S, Kingston-Upon-Thames, Surrey, England
Father's Name: John Mackleworth
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name: Harry Harmes<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M02017-9
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 1278891
Reference ID: Item 10 p 116

"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Henry John Harmes
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 29 Mar 1893
Christening Place: St. Luke's, Kingston, Surrey, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Henry Harmes
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Eliza Jane
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02220-8
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 1278891
Reference ID: item 7 p 78

Census 1881 Henry/Harry says he's married, but seems to have gone home to mum.
He is recorded as Henry Chapman on the actual image, no ditto for Harmes from members of the family above him in the record.


Address: 7, Spring Cott Fairfield Rd, KingstonCounty: Surrey

HARMES, Ann Head Widow F 74 1807 Housekeeper Dom Hounslow, Middlesex
HARMES, John Son Single M 35 1846 Sailmaker Kingston, Surrey
HARMES, Thomas G Son Widower M 23 1858 Stonemason Labourer
Kingston, Surrey
CHAPMAN, Henry Son Married M 36 1845 Brewers Labourer
Kingston, Surrey<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
HARMES, Alice H M Grand Daughter Single F 0 1881
Kingston, Surrey

However he was registered at birth as:

Births Jun 1850 Harmes Henry Chapman Kingston 4 231

so looks like it's just down to the vagaries of the census recorder.

Kucinta
Amazing stuff thank you. Re your 2110 of 18th above. The marriage of Charles and Alice in 1902 is shown on your record as 11/7/1902 but on his army record as 7/7/1902 - I favour your record because I suspect the army record is an oral recollection.

Also, Charles dob has jumped around - 1869-1873. His army records suggest 1871 one minute and 1870 the next.

I am slowly catching up with this and the other thread. Entering the stuff as I start to understand it on the family tree takes a lot of time. Imagine if I had to do the research as well!! :-D

Could this be Eliza in census 1871? Age a little older than in later censuses, but has father named Stephen (as per marriage details), and Shirley is near Southampton:

Name: Eliza Pointer
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Stephen Pointer
Mother's Name: Ann Pointer
Gender: Female
Where born: Shirley, Hampshire, England
Civil Parish: St Edmund
County/Island: Wiltshire
Country: England
Registration District: Alderbury
Sub-registration District: Salisbury

Stephen Pointer 53 c1818 Devizes, Wiltshire, England - Gardener
Ann Pointer 41 c1830 Wheller, Hampshire, England
Alice Pointer 14 c1857 Shirley, Hampshire, England
Eliza Pointer 12 c1859 Shirley, Hampshire, England
Samuel Pointer 10 c1861Salisbury, Wiltshire, England
Louisa Pointer 6 c1865 Salisbury, Wiltshire, England
Edith Pointer 2 c 1869 Salisbury, Wiltshire, England

Ties in with approx age in census 1871 above:

Births Mar 1858 Pointer Eliza Jane S. Stoneham 2c 56

S Stoneham reg district covers Shirley.

Same family in 1861, named Eliza Jane here.

EDIT, Large difference in Stephen's age and birthplace between censuses, but daurs Alice and Eliza [Jane} seem consistent.

EDIT: Age on actual image (I have pmed it, is 40, not 30.

Address: Bates Buildings Up A Passage, Gigant Street, St Martins, Salisbury
County: Wiltshire

POINTER, Stephen Head Married M 30 1831 Agricultural Labourer
Wotter, Hampshire
POINTER, Anna Wife Married F 31 1830 Poole, Dorset
POINTER, Mary Daughter Unmarried F 16 1845 Errand Girl
Wotter, Hampshire
POINTER, William Son M 14 1847 Brick Makers Labourer
Wotter, Hampshire
POINTER, Alice Daughter F 5 1856 Scholar Shorley, Hampshire
POINTER, Eliza Jane Daughter F 3 1858 Shorley, Hampshire

EDIT: Just love the address!

Marriage for Eliza Jane's parents?

Marriages Dec 1854
Hurst Richard S Stoneham 2c 93
Lawes Hannah Lock S Stoneham 2c 93
Pointer Stephen S Stoneham 2c 93<<<<<<
Tucker Anna S Stoneham 2c 93<<<<<<<<<<

Though need for caution as 'Hannah' is sometimes interchanged with 'Anna'

Looks like Anna Tucker....


"England Marriages, 1538–1973 "

Name: Stephen Pointer
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Anna Tucker
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 19 Nov 1854
Event Place: Shirley By Southampton,Hampshire,England
Father's Name: Thomas Pointer
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name: Timothy Tucker
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M13758-2
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 1041745
Reference ID:

You are on a roll Kucinta. Brilliant stuff.

Edit: 1911 census not 1891

I think I have just found the Henry J Harmes who appears in the 1911 census aged 24 - this would be Alice's (my grandmother) brother.

Name Henry John H Pointer
Year of Registration 1886
Quarter of Registration Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration District Kingston
Registration County Surrey
Mother's maiden name
Volume Number 2A
Volume Page 329

I went by the age to find him - the christening record suggets he was 7 when christened. Does this look right? Perhaps they waited to give him the name Harmes after marriage?

mick

I would suspect that is the right birth ref, and that the 'H' stands for Harmes.

Can't find an image for the baptism, record was taken from familysearch, so can't check for any indication of age.

BTW, I sent you the 1861 and 1871 census images for Eliza Jane. Do you think Stephen's birthplace on the 1861 could be Wellow rather than Wotter, if so, it opens a can of worms...

Following on from previous post, I don' know if this Stephen is the same Stephen as the one who is Eliza Jane's father in censuses above. If so, some porkies have been told along the way.

Census 1861 has Stephen born Wotter, I wondered if it could be read as Wellow on the image:

1851 has this chap in jail:

1851 census transcription details for: Hants County Prison,

POINTER, Stephen Widower M 34 1817 Laborer (Coml)
East Wellow, Hampshire

Note he is a widower and born East WELLOW.

Now there is a baptism for a Stephen Pointer in East Wellow, but no father Thomas is mentioned, just a mother, so one would assume he was illegitimate:

"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Name: Stephen Pointer
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 12 May 1816
Christening Place: EAST WELLOW,HAMPSHIRE,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name:
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Mary Pointer
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: P01508-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 1041257
Reference ID:

East Wellow Stephen looks to have married, probably to Ann Reeves.

Romsey covers East Wellow

Marriages Sep 1844
BIDDLECOMB Caroline Romsey 7 247
HARTLEY Elizabeth Romsey 7 247
POINTER Charles Romsey 7 247
POINTER Stephen Romsey 7 247
REEVES Ann Romsey 7 247
SILLENCE George Romsey 7 247


There are two baptisms likely to be children of such a marriage:

Name: William Pointer
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 17 Jan 1847
Christening Place: EAST WELLOW,HAMPSHIRE,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Stephen Pointer
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Ann
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: P01508-1
System Origin: England-ODM

Name: Mary Pointer
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 27 Jul 1845
Christening Place: EAST WELLOW,HAMPSHIRE,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Stephen Pointer
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Ann
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: P01508-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 1041257
Reference ID:

What I don't know is, is this Stephen the one who later married Ann Tucker and fathered Eliza Jane?

There is a father 'Thomas Pointer' on the marriage record to Ann Tucker, but this is not conclusive evidence against them being the same, as illegimate children often made up a fictional parent to save face on marriage certs.

This could be the death of East Wellow Stephen's first wife , but at this time no indication of age is give in the GRO index.

Deaths Mar 1848 Pointer Ann Romsey 7 1


The Stephen Pointer who married Anna Tucker is 10-13 years older than his wife, according to the actual census images, so is quite likely to have been married before.

Children of East Wellow Stephen in 1851 (tallies with the two baptisms I posted)

Address: Industry Row, Romsey Extra, Romsey County: Hampshire

MASON, Harriet Head Widow F 49 1802 Needlewoman
Romsey, Hampshire
MASON, Eliza Daughter Unmarried F 18 1833 Work At Factory
Romsey, Hampshire
MASON, Thomas Son Unmarried M 15 1836 Ag Lab Romsey, Hampshire
MASON, Jane Daughter Unmarried F 13 1838 Work At Factory
Romsey, Hampshire
RUSSEN, James Lodger Unmarried M 29 1822 Ag Lab Romsey, Hampshire
POINTER, Mary Lodger Unmarried F 6 1845 Scholar Wellow, Hampshire<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
POINTER, William Lodger M 4 1847 Scholar Wellow, Hampshire<<<<<<

DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at census 1861 I posted earlier.

William and Mary, offspring of East Wellow Stephen, are living with Stephen and second wife Anna Tucker.

Like their father, their birthplace is transcribed as 'Wotter'.

I'm SOOO slow at times.

So they are the same guy, Stephen definitely had a mother named Mary, but the jury is still out as to whether he had a father named Thomas....

"I'm SOOO slow at times"

Then I must be at a dead stop :-S

I am trying to catch up here. I think we have established that Eliza Jane had my grandmother Alice out of wedlock. The stuff you have found above adds icing to the cake and gives origins for Eliza and her family.

I am not going after the Harmes side - it's manic. I have found nine Harmes born in Kingston between 1887 and 1894. I found these while stupidly searching for Henry J Harmes who wasn't Harmes when he was born of course, but Pointer. So an even BIGGER DUH! for me :-( :-S