General Chat

John i do not think myself above anybody
we all come in to this world with nothing
and sure as my name is Joy will go out the world the same

5exy and i are not usually on the same side on anything
we are total opposites of a coin
but with this subject we had united with our passion for justice :-D

Sue I like black humour a bit, but this was just nasty and unnecessary on all levels IMNVHO. Unworthy, as I usually enjoy what both write.

I used to help my dad when he had the contarct for papers, sweets, ciggies etc at an old TB isolation hospital. It was a convalescent hospital for long term recoverers by that time. I well remember two men who used to have adjoining beds who had both been so badly smashed up in different car crashes that their bottom bits were smashed beyond recognition. They used to continually buy a sexy magazine for the other, just to taunt them. Dad did quite well out of them :-D

Not up with these benefits, so found that useful. Can't believe that in 1966 I had memorised all benefits at all income levels and could tell you what everyone in UK was entitled to.

short version

John the over-riding impression of what you have said throughout this thread ( whether intended or not) is that you are still seemingly obsessed with this belief that you/we are surrounded by benefits cheats...even going so far as to suggest we ALL have one in our family!...how can what Joy and 5exy say ( from experience, which you acknowledge you don't have) be more offensive than THAT comment?

What is there of a "civilised discussion" if you tar everyone with the same brush or resort to suggesting that someone arguing with you has been drinking?

I know there are fraudulent claims, benefit cheats, we all know that from the telly don't we...but they are not the majority, and even if they were, genuine claimants should not be chucked by the wayside in the attempt to weed them ( the cheats) out.

When the weeding out takes precedence over proper procedure and qualified medical opinions then the people it affects most have the most right to be angry, as are Joy and 5exy.

ATOS ( one day this could be you )

I've been " there " on more than one occasion :-( My first experiance was back in 2006 ( not long after ATOS took over the assessments I think ? ) Ironically , my brother who works for the DWP had warned me that " they " are bas*ards and that I needed to be on my guard for leading questions etc
I thought the chap that assessed me was being very understanding , it wasn't until the physical exam that I became seriously alarmed . I had told him that the bones in my pelvis had never healed ( from the road accident back in 1990 ) , he took hold of my left foot and twisted ( rotated ) it outwards , this caused me to shriek out in serious pain and alarm !!
I was deemed fit for work , went though the tribunal system ( which gave me access to HIS report :-| ) , he had stated that I " showed inappropriate pain " at having my leg rotated !!!!!
I did eventually win my tribunal but I had to take it all the way through the system and it took well over a year .
My doctor sent me back to the hospital , for an X-ray , the report of which clearly states that I have four unhealed fractures floating about in my pelvis .
I got through the last assessment okay but now the " goal posts " have been moved and no doubt I'll be summonsed to crawl though the hoops before much longer .
This thread is making me feel very miserable :-( I have made a point to " not focus " on my physical shortcomings over the years .
ATOS and which ever Government rubs our noses in our disabilities :-( in my opinion .

Joy nasty? I have met Joy and her family and I can assure you that that is one word that doesn't apply to her. She is however very passionate about what she believes in and has a strong sense of what is right and wrong.

I also know Sue very well and I won't hear a bad word against her. She has an amazing sense of humour and I'm not sure I would if I had to contend with her health problems.

My last post was way out of synch...because I had edited and re edited and tried very hard to be balanced....

thank you Sue your very kind x ((hug)) :-D

Does anyone else feel John's comments are irrelevant to the whole discussion or it me ? :-S

Completely irrelevant Hayley...

MOST of us know that not everyone on any sort benefit, is a benefit cheat, and that those who need help should get it without the degrading tests that are done.

MOST of us have compassion for others, even if they have never been affected by any events in this thread.

As Joy said in her opening line...... ATOS one day this could be you.

Let's hope those without compassion for others, never need to ask for help

I was feeling like some sort of needy charity case....so did'nt post yesterday.

I only went to a tribunal to get put in the support group of ESA which if the so called Atos Dr had done her job properly...thats where I would have been, as like Sue that would have stopped by April if I was in the work related group...and as no one is going to give me a council house or pay my £800 a month rent every little helps...as they say.

I have paid into it, so why can I not claim it

Dear All

Hello

What bothers me about the whole set up of ATOS is that the questions on the forms and at the medical assessment have no bearing in relation to the most important point, which is:

Is this person fully fit enough to get up, get ready, travel to a job and do the duties on a full time basis, five days a week?

The answer for most people who have to claim is NO.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the glossy pamphlets about the "help, support and training" one would receive, it simply does not exist and is a load of hot air.

There has been no investment in occupational health and proper training courses to get people back into jobs.

There are no real jobs any more. There is a huge skill gap because there was no planning two decades ago.

Most employers do not want to empoy people with a sickness record or who have some kind of disability, particularly a mental health matter.


The way the cases are handled cause much stress and degrade and the amount of the benefit which is paid is very little.

This whole matter is a shameful way in the treatment of people who are sick and disabled.


Take gentle care
Sincere wishes
Elizabeth, EOS
xx

Rose

I think benefit cheating is a very big problem. I am genuinely surprised that you do not know anyone cheating. I was thinking of a large family wedding. At one I recently went to, several were commenting how bad it was that certain people in the room were claiming benefits they were not entitled to. They were talking about 4 different people out of about 120 in the room. It is quite a respectable family, and those discussed were all young people under 35. I did not join in the discussion, but overheard some of it as it was "stage whispers".

And both the Coalition and the Opposition think it is a big problem. And so does the Welsh Governnment. And phone ins on Radio Wales often address the issue of benefit cheats and it seems to be pretty massive.

Don't think anyone denies it is a problem - just perhaps deny it is a major problem. My only purpose in raising it on this thread (and Gwynne raised it also) is I think that is a major reason why so many claiming benefits are being treated in this appalling way.

And *false claims* are the enemy of those in genuine need of benefit support rather than IDS or Ed Balls.

Thank you Sue <3

xx

SueMaid I was writing to Sue about Joy and 5EXY and their unworthy comments. They seemed to suggest I was an uncaring person and less caring than either of them.

I am happy to stir. I am happy to discuss with Sue or anyone. No two people have the same opinions anyway - that is part of life's rich tapestry. But it is a waste of time trying to tell somebody that you are a more or less lovely person that they are.

Yes well it is the case John that I don't have any benefits cheats in my family nor do I know anyone who is claiming DLA fraudulently...I do however know a number of people who haven't claimed benefits they are entitled to ( entitled by virtue of paying into the system all their working life) , and people who have had benefits unfairly cut, or at best delayed, causing them extreme stress.

I don't suggest there is no problem, just that the ends are not justified by the means, if people who are ill are the ones who are made to suffer.

btw I don't think Joy or 5exy were saying that they were more caring than you...just that you don't have first hand experience of what you are commenting on...and they do, as to a certain extent, in terms of caring for someone with a terminal illness. have I. And I can assure you no amount of compassion or understanding or thought, is a substitute for actually 'living with it'.

John - if you were annoying one or two people then that would be fair enough. It happens when we are discussing important issues. However when you are annoying so many people don't you think at some point you have to wonder if you need to review the way you are putting your points across.

My daughter and son in law both work in well paid jobs. My daughter has a special needs child - my grand daughter has Downs' Syndrome. She is reasonably healthy and bright and now attending a mainstream school with her brothers - and doing very well. However my daughter is entitled to a special allowance and health card which allows her to buy any medications Aimee needs cheaply. This also enables her to pay for speech therapy, dance classes for co-ordination, and an IPad for various applications that help her at school. Some would say that they earn enough to not deserve this allowance. Her paediatrician says this is not so - she is entitled. I agree.

But ladies, why have you assumed that I am not living with it? I certainly know a lot more about it than you probably think I do.

I tend to agree with Lynda. A lot of this has been pretty irrelevant. The purpose of this thread was to draw attention to the terrible unfairness of ATOS. The OP wanted everybody to agree, praised Ron early on for having same view.

And I think, after a lot of hot air and some learning on all sides hopefully, we do agree in general terms with Joy.

So why don't we put the relevant points from this thread together, print it off, and present it to our local MP, our local AM (Wales) and MSP (Scotland). Have not seen this raised in Parliament or Welsh Assembly but don't follow their debates as closely as I would like. But, even if it has been raised, it will do no harm to keep raising this issue. My local MP is a real bulldog - even fiercer than SueMaid or Rose.

I was just thinking - surely the way people have been treated by ATOS is an infringement of human rights?

I would imagine that the ATOS have already had their lawyers check over all procedures - they wouldn't leave themselves open to being sued.

Now to the 'anonymous' person who sent me a message suggesting that as an Aussie I shouldn't be commenting on British policies - if you knew me you would know that I was born in England and that I have many relatives still living in Britain of various ages from 92 y.o. to new born babies. I think I have every right to comment - this may eventually affect Australia too.

Quote John "And I would never claim to understand much about the needs of chronically ill people - I admit I am an ignoramus in that area"

so do you know or don't you?

John I did not think this was a I'm lovely person competition, I never said or infered it was, no one has.

So I ask again John-as my views differ from yours why do you feel you have the right to say they are "unworthy". The same applies to Joy's comments, as Sue has explained people with disabilities have very different coping stratagies & humour of their own.

You haven't responded to my post asking how you would cope if you were unable to have your "usual" day?