General Chat

Sorry, Katherine, I don't quite follow that.

I respect your right to your beliefs, as I respect the rights of everyone to their beliefs, and I do agree that we are all accountable to each other.

I can understand the idea that there is an ideal way to live, which I guess involves "doing onto others as you would have them do onto you"

And here we have a non-sequitur - the idea (in my mind)/belief (in your mind) that this whole thing is controlled by "God". Why? Says who?

Your first sentence "God himself declares that he is a holy God". No disrespect intended, but I could declare myself a lottery winner/supporter of NUFC as premiership champions/size 10 and aged 30 - but does that make it so? Not unless I was Jean-Luc Picard

Sue x

Katherine ,Re Romans:It was cited in the C & P that Janey posted as below http://www.gotquestions.org/Does-God-exist.html ,
of the version you posted
( sorry to confuse)

"Here's the way it goes in the version I cited (yours is apparently an ungrammatical paraphrase):

'People claim to not believe in God because it is “not scientific” or “because there is no proof.” The true reason is that once people admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from Him (Romans 3:23; 6:23).' <<<

Hi Janey

"soul" comes into it - a la soul music

"As for that luv business thou quoteth: that wasn't love, that was patriarchy. ;) And I don't buy into that one either!"

Buy into it or not - your choice. But I do.

Sue x

I'm sorry to disagree, Katherine, but

"When speaking of love when referring to God, it is Agape love which is unconditional love. In other words God loves us whatever and has nothing to do with Filia love which refers to human emotions"

If, as the bible asserts, your god made us in his image, then surely he gave us the ability to give love unconditionally. As a parent and as a wife, I do believe I've done so in the case of my late husband, and continue to do so, in the case of my daughter.

Sue x

It's been very interesting :) but I'm off to bed...so in the words of the inimitable Dave Allen

"Goodnight and may your God go with you" :))

xx

And, quoting the two Ronnies

It's goodnight from her, and goodnight from me"

Sue x

Sue, no disrespect received, if someone has a christian belief then they believe that God has ultimate authority as there is no-one higher than himself. As he is Holy there is no wrongness in him and therefore he is able to judge any situation, wrong done or right done impartially.
Janey,
God deals with the question you had about stealing because of hunger by not judging them as he is able to judge the intentions of the heart and not just the deed. It is men who make the law a law unto itself at times. As for the abortion issue. Though I don't agree with it, I would never take away or judge people for the choices they make. I have supported people who have made that decision with much pain, not having anyone to turn to and they didn't come to the decision lightly. I myself have not done this but, I have lost two babies in the past but it wouldn't affect my compassion for those who are making the extremely difficult choice on whether to terminate a pregnancy or not and I certainly wouldn't pressure them.
We tend not to think through the consequences of our actions at times is what I want to say and, when we suffer we wonder why.
No-one has all the answers and, I certainly don't but. I believe God has all the answers anyone will ever need if people want them. They may not like the answer that he gives but it is for their benefit in the end and there are many, many people who can agree though not everyone will. but that's free will.

Katherine xx

Katherine, you offered up what the author, and you, called "arguments" to support belief in the existence of a god.

In the spirit of the thing we call discusison -- or, when "arguments" are expressly offered, debate -- I offered my rebuttal of them.

I addressed what you said. You don't seem to be able to do the same thing. You're the one who chose to say, well, copy, what you posted.

"I am not out to convince anyone of my beliefs as I believe only God can do this."

??

Then what are all these "arguments" in aid of??

If you don't subscribe to them, and just posted them for the curious, fine.


suzian -- that whither etc. was who, Ruth?

Widowed, left the godless land of Moab, her own society, to go back to mother-in-law's home town. Ended up marrying a rich guy related to father-in-law -- because the widowed mother-in-law wanted to sell the land they lived on, her deceased husband's land, and *she went with the land* -- but they fudged it so it could be the deceased owner's son's widow who went with the land and nobody had to marry the old woman. The woman went with the land -- to preserve the ownership of the land, keep it in the (man's) family. Patriarchy! And fairy tale, since the poor but beautiful young widow got the rich husband.

Whether Ruth spoke those words to Naomi out of "love", I dunno. Love, hope for a better life ... ? I wonder where her love for her own parents might have been. Or maybe she had been orphaned.

"Love" undoubtedly calls for sacrifice. It also produces rewards.


It's things like these that started me out the church door. ;)

Confirmation classes, age 13 -- the minister said it was okay if I didn't believe in hell, because he had a fellow clergyman who didn't. But the one I could not get over was the parable of the talents. A god who rewards cheating capitalists and casts out those who refuse to make more profits for the villains?? Not in my universe!

Ultimately it was just age and reason that did it. By the time I was 15, all the comforts (and even intellectually interesting bits) of religion just couldn't overcome the unbelievability of it. ;)

Janey, Those arguments are there in answer to the theories put out there as to why it can be proved there is no God. They were specifically answering the questions about creation by a higher intelligent designer or, something just appearing out of nothing and then slowly evolving over zillions of years from a microbe that randomly appeared out of nothing.
I stand by what I posted because I believe that everything that exists is not by chance but, I don't believe that I am able to convince people intellectually as the real knowledge of God speaks to the spirit of a person , I believe that only God can do this as it is their innermost being and no person can touch that part with mere words. It takes God himself to reach down and reveal himself to those who will receive him.
I come across clergymen like the one in your youth at times and it baffles me as to why they profess a belief in a God who doesn't resemble the God of the bible. It's very sad but unfortunately they have been around for a long time. Jesus himself had dealings with them often enough but he handled it alot better than I ever could.
The parables have a very Jewish context to them and can't be treated on face value. And no, it doesn't mean that God rewards greedy capitalists. :) As you may know, Jesus is saying this is like the kingdom of God , the talents represent his word and the servants are the rabbis, ministers, clergymen etc. He was comparing those who were just religious and had no real love for him and his word to those who had the whole counsel of God and were happy and went out investing it and sharing it with the people. The rewards would be given on a set day as to how they had handled his word. had they given hope to people or not bothered and used it as a tool against them.
Love does call for sacrifice and that is why Jesus allowed himself to be crucified for our sake. So that we could have knowledge of God, of his nature and a restored relationship' with him and the reward is eternal life and not separation. (might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb) :). No! I am not sermonizing, just answering your post so please don't bite my head off. It's the only one I've got and my neck's still sore from the wringing you gave it earlier :)))

Katherine xx

Question to all them believe in a creator, where do you draw the line between creations and nature i.e. are the clouds a creation are all life forms a creation, at what stage to you say that’s caused by nature.

Monty Pythons songs which i love.
All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
Al things rude and nasty,
The Lord God mad the lot.

Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made thier brutishvenom,
He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid,
Who made the spikey urchin?
Who made the shrks? He did.

All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Purid foul and gangernous,
The Lord God made them all.

AMEN.

Golly, now I know why I don't do cyber faith chats! I'm cross eyed already and it's only 7.55am!


How much better to be able to sit down together, probably with a table between us to give each other the space which may be needed. We would then be able to see each other's eyes and expressions; hear each other's stories and experiences and give us the opportunity to share our thoughts, hopes and fears in the safety of real friendship. Steaming coffee would be served and it would be quite understood if the door were to be slammed on the way out because that's the way real friendships go occasionally :)) Cx

cyntha, your spot on with that, so different when your face to face with someone.

RB re the Monty Python song...yes isn't it great? without "ugly" things ( not that I agree all those mentioned are ) beauty would be less apparent...

stand, for eg, Angelina Jolie next to me and you double her beauty quotient in an instant ;)

The black spot on the rose leaves makes the perfect rose above even more lovely.

"Question to all them believe in a creator, where do you draw the line between creations and nature i.e. are the clouds a creation are all life forms a creation, at what stage to you say that’s caused by nature."

Is that asking do I believe in an interventionist God? or one who started the creation and then 'let it run' ( in terms of natural events, natural selection, evolution).


answers after more coffee ;)

Just putting the kettle back on Rose. One sweetener or two? :)) Cx

lol Cynthia, I'll pop in my own sugar please :) trying to cut down, but I don't like sweeteners as an alternative ,

( in terms of natural events, natural selection, evolution).
all of them, planet earth was it made by a creator?

Katherine, this thread was specifically about Stephen Hawking's new book (which of course I haven't read; I made it through 10 pages of his first book).

If you seriously think that kindergarten-level "argument" like what you posted is an appropriate response to the likes of Stephen Hawking (or even, clearly, the likes of me) ...

WOW... A good old debate about the age old question eh?
So glad everyone is talking and not falling out over this..
because to argue about it would be no point as it's a question that is probably unanswerable..
The one thing I got from religion is 'to love one another' I agree with that..

Was there a Creator? probably not, we just 'ARE'..

For thos who might want to watch

Stephen Hawking's Universe(Scientific Documentary,1997)
Channel 4
Saturday, September 18th, 2010
8:00pm to 9:00pm