Genealogy Chat

There are two Herbert Kilby death's in the first world war on the Commonwealth War Graves site, but they don't give any details for either of them.

Kath. x

Found this birth (although no mother's maiden name given at this time I'd say it was a likely son of Herbert and Annie):-

Herbert Frank Kilby
June qtr. 1910, Leicester, 7a, 221.

Kath. x

Kath
You're a star!
Many thanks for Lens marriage to Joan Boyce -
Dec 1934.
Also (probably co-incidently) this 1934 date ties in with My gran Annie Kilby1909 marriage/ Mann1927 marriage (nee Fowkes) also Lens mum
re-registering my mums birth (Irene Kilby 1922) & changing the name on the registration to Kilby to Mann. I am reluctant to add the 1910 birth of Herbert to my family tree as there is no evidence of the mothers maiden name ( I do agree with you though that it is very likely to be Annie & Herberts son) why no mothers name & how can I be sure????

I've checked the birth index and your mum was registered at the time of her birth in 1922 as both Irene E. Kilby and Irene E. Mann, so her parent's weren't married at the time. She was then re-registered in 1934 again as Irene E Mann - presumably after the illegitimacy law's changed. I'm not sure of the details, but I think in about 1927 the law was changed so that a child could be legitimised after the parents married.

Kath. x

Mother's maiden name was not added to the birth indexes until the Sept. qtr. of 1911. Since the two first names of the child whose birth I found are the same as Annie Fowkes's husband, I'd say it was more than likely their child. If you ordered the birth certificate you could give Annie Fowkes as the mother's maiden name as a reference checking point and then they would only issue the certificate if that was the mother's maiden name.

Kath. x

Found this on Genuki about re-registration of births:-

When a child's birth is re-registered, the original entry becomes closed. The information may be the same but when re-registered after marriage the 'illegitimate' child becomes legitimate (ie. a child of the marriage, even if it is years later, as long as the original father was the man the mother marries). You wouldn't normally be told it was a re-registration. You might pick this up by the information on the certificate by the registrar's signature and date on the new certificate, but most people wouldn't notice this subtle anomally and not realise the birth had been re-registered.

Kath. x

Thanks again Kath, that all makes perfect sense and ties in with my mum telling me that Len was her step-brother - I had thought she meant he had a different father, but now realise that SHE did.
I think my gran Annie got married to Herbert Kilby in 1909 had X children - he must have then died, probably in the war (?) and my gran met Walter Mann, had my mother , Irene in 1922 ( and any other children?), then got married to Walter in 1927 & re-registered my mums birth in 1934. Do we know anything about Walter? Did he & Annie have any other children? When did he die? Had HE been married before? Did Herbert die during the war? Did he & Annie have any other children?

There is a marriage in Leicester for a Walter James Mann in 1899. This could be the same Walter, or it could be your Walter's father perhaps, or it could be no relation at all:-

Marriage:-

Walter J. Mann to either Ada Rutter, OR Eliza Ann Sharpe (probably Ada Rutter going by the 1901 census)
Sept. qtr. 1899, Leicester, 7a, 511.

On the 1901 census, Walter J. Mann and wife Ada had an 8 month old son called Ernest T. Mann.

Kath. x

My eldest brother was born in Leicester and his middle name is 'James'. it is possible that my mum gave him this name after her fathers (middle name).
So Walter James Mann could well be my mums dad,
I will order my mums birth certificate(this may not actually tell me though as she was registered as Irene Kilby at birth and only re-registerd to Mann in 1934)?
My mum & dads wedding certificate should show my mums, dads name though, but I have no idea when mum & dad got married - other than it must have been between 1940-1947(?) in Leicester.My mum Irene Evelyn Mann married Bernard John Nash of South Wales.

Gillian,

Your mum was registered as Irene Mann at birth as well as Irene Kilby, which means that Walter Mann must have been her father, or she wouldn't have been registered in his name as well as her mother's married name.

Kath. x

Your mum's marriage:-

Bernard J. Nash, spouse Mann
Sept, qtr. 1942, Pontypridd, 11a, 1192

Kath. x

Just goes to show you! I though mum had got married in leicester as sher mum lived there and she lived there all her life, my eldest brother was even born there - but Pontypridd eh? well thats where dad came from, so makes sense.
Just a quick question...
"Walter J. Mann married to either Ada Rutter, OR Eliza Ann Sharpe (probably Ada Rutter going by the 1901 census)"
why the confusion?? why is it not clear who he married? also, assuming he was about 20 when he married in 1899,he would have been a lot older than my gran -about 13yrs(?) - do we know if he got divorced or was he a widower? - Is it likely that HE was my grans future husband?
ps - great 'chatting' to you - really appreciate your help. thanks.

Sorry Gillian, I've been offline for a couple of hours.

The confusion over who he married was because on the partialy transcribed index it just shows everyone on a particular page in the marriage index. There can be either 4 or 8 names on a page so without buying the marriage certificate you can't tell who married who.

However, because this marriage was in 1899, I could look on the 1901 census to see if Walter's wife was called Ada or Eliza and she was called Ada - so I just assumed it was probably Ada Rutter that he married.

If you buy Annie's marriage certificate when she married Walter, it should tell you if he was a widower or divorced (much more likely a widower as divorce was very expensive and difficult to get at that time).

I'd say that there is a very good chance that it's the same Walter who married your gran - but you do need to get certificates to be certain.

I can't be certain but this could possibly be Walter's birth reference:-

Name: Walter James Mann
Year of Registration: 1880
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Leicester (1837-1974)
County: Leicestershire
Volume: 7a
Page: 292

Kath. x

I found this death which might be Walter's first wife (although the age is out a bit from what it was on the 1901 census but that is often the case on death certificates as it depends on who is giving the information):-

Name: Ada Mann
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Year of Registration: 1919
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 47
District: Melton Mowbray
County: Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire
Volume: 7a
Page: 541

Kath. x

This could be Annie's first husband's death:-

Name: Herbert F Kilby
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1886
Year of Registration: 1914
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 28
District: Leicester (1837-1974)
County: Leicestershire
Volume: 7a
Page: 200

Kath. x

Hi Kath- I found this:
Parents of Ernest Thomas Mann:-
Walter James Mann b c1879,Leicester.
Ada Rutter b c1879,Burton-on-Trent,Staffs.
From 1901 census.
Walter and Ada married Sept 1899,Leicester.
Both 'birth' dates are c1879, but yu found Adas to be c1872 (7yr dif) & Walter c1880. Are these the same people do you think? Do we know if they had any other children than Ernest? - what happened to Ernest-married?/death?/children?

Annie Kilby (nee Fowkes) first huband Herbert Kilby appears to have died in 1914, but Annie had two other children after that (that I know about)? :
Robert Kilby 1st qtr 1917 & Irene Evelyn kilby -later Mann July 1922 (my mum).
Annie married Walter Mann in 1927 - five years after my mum was born - why the delay? and her son Robert Kilby b1917 was born 3 years after her husband Herbert had died - who was his father?

Gillian,

I think the 1901 census for Walter and Ada just have the wrong birth years for them which often happens - I have family members whose birth years are out by up to 10 years sometimes (mistakes happen). I'm pretty sure they will be your couple.

As for whether they have any other children it's difficult to say as between 1901 (census year) and 1911 (when mother's maiden name is added to the birth index) it would be difficult to tell if any Mann births were to Walter and Ada as it wouldn't give a maiden name you could check. You could have a look at the index to see if there are any Mann births with Rutter for the mother's maiden name between 1911 and when Ada died.

As for Ernest Thomas Mann, there is no marriage or death for that name on the partially transcribed index, so it means that you will have to search through the complete index qtr. by qtr. looking for a marriage or death, and with no idea of the timescale it could take a long time.

Kath. x

I thought I would just look through a couple of years of marriages to see if I could find Ernest's marriage. I started when he would be about 20 and I found this one which is about the right time and in Leicester:-

Ernest T. Mann to May Hickling
Sept. qtr. 1922, Leicester, 7a, 714

Kath. x

Found this birth which might be Ernest's daughter:-

Edna W. Mann, mother's maiden name Hickling
June qtr. 1923, Leicester, 7a, 311

I put the name Edna Mann into the quick search box at the top of the message board page and there is someone on this site called Linda with this Edna Mann in her tree. Perhaps you could send her a message as you may be related, as it would seem very likely that Ernest T. Mann could be your mother's half-brother.

Kath. x