Genealogy Chat

Hi Kath

Hope you are still around - Ref: Walter J Mann - you sent me this on 11.10.07:
However, because this marriage was in 1899, I could look on the 1901 census to see if Walter's wife was called Ada or Eliza and she was called Ada - so I just assumed it was probably Ada Rutter that he married.

Thought you may like to know that I know believe there is a posibility that he married BOTH Ada Rutter(in1899) & Eliza Draper(in 1912) before he married my gran, Annie Kilby (nee Fowkes) in 1927.

I have lots of detective work ahead of me, like: when did Ada die - i have 2 pos deaths 1 in Melton Mowbry Leicester 1919 & 1 in Middlesbro in 1910.
DID he marry Eliza in 1912? Is it the SAME Walter Mann? if so, when did Eliza die (must have been before 1927 cos he married gran! or did he divorce Eliza.
OR, did he only marry Ada & when she died
( latest pos date is 1919), why didnt he marry my gran? He didnt marry her until 1927 - even though they had had a daughter together in 1922 - Irene, (my mum).
Just thought id keep you up to date as you had helped me get half way there!
thanks
regards
Gill

Thanks kath for our help - I will endeavour to get hold of the marriage certificate to see what it tells me. ( thanks also to your son for letting you use his computer !
Gill

I've had a look through the marriage index between 1919 and 1927 and can't find another marriage for Walter J. Mann in Leicester.

I really think you need to get the marriage certificate for Walter J. Mann and Annie Kilby to see if it gives any clues about who Walter was married to previously (sometimes but not always it gives the name of the previous spouse).

The witnesses to the marriage may turn out to be relatives that can help with determining the correct family.

Kath. x

Hi Gillian,

It would be difficult to check if Ernest T. Mann had any brothers/sisters, as between 1901 when we have him as an only child on the census and 1911 (when mother's maiden name was added to the birth index, if would be impossible to tell if any Mann births registered were to Walter and Ada.

As for whether Walter Mann had another marriage between Ada and Annie, it would be just a matter of searching through the marriage index between Ada dying and the marriage to Annie.

I can have a look for you later but my son needs the computer right now (it's his so I can't complain) and I just keep popping on in between him doing what he has to.

Kath. x

Thanks Kath
I obviously hadnt read it correctly - makes perfect sense now! Do we know if Ernest had any brothers / sisters? - was he an only child?
Also, Walter Mann's 1st wife Ada died in 1919, my mum Irene Mann was bor 1922, but my gran Annie kilby, didnt marry Walter Mann until 1927 - could this marriage have been his 3rd? was he marrioed between 1919 & 1927? otherwise why the gap?
Many thanks again Kath for your help -
kind regards
Gill

Gillian,

Read through my replies again.

It wasn't Walter Mann who was married to May Hickling, it was Walter's son Ernest from his first marriage who was married to May Hickling.

I do think your mother's father was Walter Mann who was married to Ada Rutter and then married to Annie Fowkes.

I think Ernest T. Mann who was married to May Hickling was your mother's half brother (they both had Walter Mann as their father but with different mothers).

Kath. x

Hi Kath

Many thanks for the info.
I am now a bit confused as to whether my mothers father was:
Walter Mann who had previously been married to ada Rutter, OR Walter Mann, who had been previously married to May Hickling??
My mother's,( Irene Mann) mother was Annie Kilby nee Fowles, who after her husbands (Kilby) death, later married a Mr Mann. My mum was born July 1922. Can we find out when Walter Mann's wife May Hickiling died?
Thanks

I also found this birth:-

Ruby M. Mann, mother's maiden name Hickling
Sept. qtr. 1924, Leicester, 71, 483.

and this one:-

Muriel I. Mann, mother's maiden name Hickling
Dec. qtr. 1925, Leicester, 7a, 430

and this one:-

Alexander A. Mann, mother's maiden name Hickling
June qtr. 1930, Leicester, 7a, 482

I've checked to the end of 1930 but there may be more births after that.

Kath. x

Found this birth which might be Ernest's daughter:-

Edna W. Mann, mother's maiden name Hickling
June qtr. 1923, Leicester, 7a, 311

I put the name Edna Mann into the quick search box at the top of the message board page and there is someone on this site called Linda with this Edna Mann in her tree. Perhaps you could send her a message as you may be related, as it would seem very likely that Ernest T. Mann could be your mother's half-brother.

Kath. x

I thought I would just look through a couple of years of marriages to see if I could find Ernest's marriage. I started when he would be about 20 and I found this one which is about the right time and in Leicester:-

Ernest T. Mann to May Hickling
Sept. qtr. 1922, Leicester, 7a, 714

Kath. x

Gillian,

I think the 1901 census for Walter and Ada just have the wrong birth years for them which often happens - I have family members whose birth years are out by up to 10 years sometimes (mistakes happen). I'm pretty sure they will be your couple.

As for whether they have any other children it's difficult to say as between 1901 (census year) and 1911 (when mother's maiden name is added to the birth index) it would be difficult to tell if any Mann births were to Walter and Ada as it wouldn't give a maiden name you could check. You could have a look at the index to see if there are any Mann births with Rutter for the mother's maiden name between 1911 and when Ada died.

As for Ernest Thomas Mann, there is no marriage or death for that name on the partially transcribed index, so it means that you will have to search through the complete index qtr. by qtr. looking for a marriage or death, and with no idea of the timescale it could take a long time.

Kath. x

Annie Kilby (nee Fowkes) first huband Herbert Kilby appears to have died in 1914, but Annie had two other children after that (that I know about)? :
Robert Kilby 1st qtr 1917 & Irene Evelyn kilby -later Mann July 1922 (my mum).
Annie married Walter Mann in 1927 - five years after my mum was born - why the delay? and her son Robert Kilby b1917 was born 3 years after her husband Herbert had died - who was his father?

Hi Kath- I found this:
Parents of Ernest Thomas Mann:-
Walter James Mann b c1879,Leicester.
Ada Rutter b c1879,Burton-on-Trent,Staffs.
From 1901 census.
Walter and Ada married Sept 1899,Leicester.
Both 'birth' dates are c1879, but yu found Adas to be c1872 (7yr dif) & Walter c1880. Are these the same people do you think? Do we know if they had any other children than Ernest? - what happened to Ernest-married?/death?/children?

This could be Annie's first husband's death:-

Name: Herbert F Kilby
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1886
Year of Registration: 1914
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 28
District: Leicester (1837-1974)
County: Leicestershire
Volume: 7a
Page: 200

Kath. x

I found this death which might be Walter's first wife (although the age is out a bit from what it was on the 1901 census but that is often the case on death certificates as it depends on who is giving the information):-

Name: Ada Mann
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Year of Registration: 1919
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 47
District: Melton Mowbray
County: Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire
Volume: 7a
Page: 541

Kath. x

Sorry Gillian, I've been offline for a couple of hours.

The confusion over who he married was because on the partialy transcribed index it just shows everyone on a particular page in the marriage index. There can be either 4 or 8 names on a page so without buying the marriage certificate you can't tell who married who.

However, because this marriage was in 1899, I could look on the 1901 census to see if Walter's wife was called Ada or Eliza and she was called Ada - so I just assumed it was probably Ada Rutter that he married.

If you buy Annie's marriage certificate when she married Walter, it should tell you if he was a widower or divorced (much more likely a widower as divorce was very expensive and difficult to get at that time).

I'd say that there is a very good chance that it's the same Walter who married your gran - but you do need to get certificates to be certain.

I can't be certain but this could possibly be Walter's birth reference:-

Name: Walter James Mann
Year of Registration: 1880
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Leicester (1837-1974)
County: Leicestershire
Volume: 7a
Page: 292

Kath. x

Just goes to show you! I though mum had got married in leicester as sher mum lived there and she lived there all her life, my eldest brother was even born there - but Pontypridd eh? well thats where dad came from, so makes sense.
Just a quick question...
"Walter J. Mann married to either Ada Rutter, OR Eliza Ann Sharpe (probably Ada Rutter going by the 1901 census)"
why the confusion?? why is it not clear who he married? also, assuming he was about 20 when he married in 1899,he would have been a lot older than my gran -about 13yrs(?) - do we know if he got divorced or was he a widower? - Is it likely that HE was my grans future husband?
ps - great 'chatting' to you - really appreciate your help. thanks.

Your mum's marriage:-

Bernard J. Nash, spouse Mann
Sept, qtr. 1942, Pontypridd, 11a, 1192

Kath. x

Gillian,

Your mum was registered as Irene Mann at birth as well as Irene Kilby, which means that Walter Mann must have been her father, or she wouldn't have been registered in his name as well as her mother's married name.

Kath. x

My eldest brother was born in Leicester and his middle name is 'James'. it is possible that my mum gave him this name after her fathers (middle name).
So Walter James Mann could well be my mums dad,
I will order my mums birth certificate(this may not actually tell me though as she was registered as Irene Kilby at birth and only re-registerd to Mann in 1934)?
My mum & dads wedding certificate should show my mums, dads name though, but I have no idea when mum & dad got married - other than it must have been between 1940-1947(?) in Leicester.My mum Irene Evelyn Mann married Bernard John Nash of South Wales.