Genealogy Chat

I have searched everywhere and paid out mountains of money AH!!!!!! but to no avail. These are the details I have. Cast in order of appearance : Hugh Sinclair: Born about 1813. Married 25th March 1839 Perth. Scotland to Christina Munro: Born about 1817. Son of above, Hugh Sinclair born about 1858. Married Catherine Garaven 27th Nov.1878. Speygate, Perth. Scotland . Hugh died 13th Aug 1932 age 74 at Perth. Hugh married twice, second wife, Emma Lawrence but have no date for this. Found Emma on Hugh's death details as 'widow of'. Son of Hugh Sinclair and Emma Lawrence, Thomas born about 1895 but don't know where. Thomas married Margaret Cable Simpson 7th Feb 1918 at St. John's West Manse, Dundee Road, Kinnoull, Perth. They had 3 children Hugh, Thomas and Kenneth(ME) I NEED TO KNOW WHERE THOMAS, MY FATHER, WAS BORN . Would like to bring down the curtain on this. Any information more than welcome. A BOTTLE OF MALT TO THE ONE WHO FINDS THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE!

So for a thimble of malt, this is the man who married twice, with his first wife, on the 1881 census: Dwelling: 132 High St Census Place: Perth Middle Church, Perth, Scotland Source: FHL Film 0203512 GRO Ref Volume 387 EnumDist 25 Page 13 Marr Age Sex Birthplace Hugh SINCLAIR M 23 M Perth, Perth, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Hammerman Catherine SINCLAIR M 21 F Perth, Perth, Scotland Rel: Wife Hugh SINCLAIR 2 M Perth, Perth, Scotland Rel: Son John SINCLAIR 11 m M Perth, Perth, Scotland Rel: Son Hugh SINCLAIR M 60 M Perth, Perth, Scotland Rel: Father Occ: Rope Spinner Robert SINCLAIR U 25 M Perth, Perth, Scotland Rel: Brother Occ: Shoemaker Merry (would be if I could get the scotch!) - What have you tried on Scotlands People? (Says I, who has never used the site!)

Kenneth I happen to live in Perth & if I can be of any assistance just let me know. I also have about 6 credits left on the Scotlands People site if you need them. Rach

Could it be that Hugh (b 1858) was married more than twice? In 1901 there is this family: Hugh Sinclair abt 1859 Scotland Head Byker Northumberland John Sinclair abt 1881 Scotland Son Byker Northumberland Sarah Sinclair abt 1861 Hexham, Northumberland, England Wife Byker Northumberland Thomas Sinclair abt 1892 Newcastle Upon Tyne Son Byker Northumberland William Sinclair abt 1882 Scotland Son Byker Northumberland Obviously Hugh is married to Sarah, above, but how do we know she isn't your father's mother and that Emma Lawrence didn't come along later? Expect you have an answer for this, or I'm up to two thimbles full??! Merry

Hi Kenneth, You asked on the other ''elusive'' thread if the 1901 census would tell you about the second marriage..... Do you mean the 1901 census I posted above? There is a possible marriage of Hugh Sinclair to a Sarah as follows: Marriages Mar 1891 Bowen William Thomas Chorlton 8c 1256 Dutton Sarah Chorlton 8c 1256 Dutton Sarah Elizabeth Chorlton 8c 1256 Sinclair Hugh Chorlton 8c 1256 Wood Elizabeth Ann Chorlton 8c 1256 But I don't know if this is the marriage for the people on the 1901 census, or if that is indeed what you are talking about on this thread!! There was a Thomas Sinclair on the 1901 census record on the other thread, but he was slightly older than you were expecting, aged 9 in 1901 (from your fathers death cert). Do you know when your father celebrated his birthday (what date in the year I mean)?? There are these birth reg's that could fit to the boy who was the son of Hugh and Sarah: Births Jun 1892 Sinclair Thomas Rothbury 10b 478 Sinclair Thomas Tynemouth 10b 266 Births Dec 1892 Sinclair Thomas Newcastle T. 10b 1[53]3 Births Dec 1893 Sinclair Thomas Edwin Newcastle T. 10b 119 The Dec 1892 looks like the best fit at present for the son of Hugh and Sarah. However, didn't you have reason to believe your father's mother was Emma Lawrence???????? Merry (3 thimbles?)

Right, a bit more: The 1881 census in Perth seems to be yours (far above on this thread). I then posted the 1901 census for Hugh with wife Sarah, that I believe is a match to the 1881 family. Now I've got the 1891 census, showing Hugh with Sarah and at this date they have his son, Hugh, who was on the 1881 census showing with them: Sinclair, Hugh abt 1854 Scotland Head All Saints Northumberland Sinclair, Hugh abt 1879 Scotland Son All Saints Northumberland Sinclair, John abt 1881 Scotland Son All Saints Northumberland Sinclair, Sarah abt 1855 Hexham, Northumberland, England Wife All Saints Northumberland Sinclair, Wm abt 1883 Scotland Son All Saints Northumberland I really do think this must be your Hugh (b abt 1858) as so many details fit with the info you gave at the start and follow through from census to census. Merry (4 thimbles)

Did your father marry?? If he did, (sorry I think you did mention this on one of your other threads, but I can't find it now!) then what occupation did he give for his father, Hugh? Merry (4½ thimbles?)

Nudged for Kenneth (how much does a thimble hold?) Merry

I have now found this on one of your earlier threads: ''His marriage certificate states Thomas Sinclair age 23 married Margaret Cable Simpson age 23 on 7th february 1918 at St. John's West Manse , Dundee Road Kinnoull, Perth. Father Hugh Sinclair, Mother Emma Lawerance.'' I hadn't appreciated that Thomas had married in Scotland, so the marriage cert would include his mother's name. Hmmmm..... so is the family at Byker in 1901 a complete red herring even though they have EXACTLY the right children with the right ages through 1891 and 1901?? It could have been possible that Emma was a step-mother, but this seems extremely unlikely, given that Sarah was alive in 1901 when her son was aged 8 or 9. (again suggesting the Byker family are a red-herring) You still have not metioned what occupation Hugh was supposed to have had when his son married (assuming this is on Scottish certs - I have never seen one!!) What have you found in the way of men named Hugh Sinclair on the later Scottish census records? Do you know when Hugh's first wife died? (if she died?) Merry

Merry , Sorry about the mix up but have just started here and don't know my way around here yet. Hope this is right now, and yes the Malt is still there . I am trying all the different places but cannot find Emma Lawrence although she is on my father and mothers marriage certificate. I suppose that Catherine Garaven could have been my fathers mother but cannot find her death so don't know. Gosh even reading this back I am getting confused myself, better drink that Malt myself. (Only joking!) Again thanks to all of you for your help even if I can't find my fathers birth certificate. Ken. Hugh Sinclair, my grandfather was a Gasfitter.

There you are!! What was Hugh's occupation on your father's marriage cert?? ...and do you know your dad's birthday (not the year, the month and date)?? Merry

Don't know my father's birthday. Don't remember anyone celebrating birthdays at that time. All I know is on the marriage certificate Thomas Sinclair age 23 married 7th feb 1918 sorry. It states he was a railway porter then.

Hmmmm How do you know that the Hugh who was married to Catherine Garaven is yours?? If you knew your father's mother was Emma Lawrence, why did you home in on Hugh married to Catherine?? Can feel the malt slipping away..............!!!! Merry

On Scotlands People I found Death of Hugh Sinclair 1932 Perth and it states Widow of wife no 1 ----- wife no 2 Amy Jane Lawrence or Barne ( although on my fathers marriage certificate it states her as Emma Lawrence) and father Hugh Sinclair( Ropemaker) wife Christina Munro. I also found Hugh Sinclair married to Catherine Garaven 1878 father Hugh Sinclair, mother Christina Munro. 5 thimbles equals 1 nip.

Right, I get that now (I don't know anything about Scotlands People site - would that info be from official documentation?) Seems to me that they may never have left Perth! Have you been able to find Hugh (b 1858) on any later census than the 1881 in Scotland? Strange about the variable names for Emma/Amy Jane. I wonder if the reason you cannot find a marriage for Hugh and any Miss Lawrence is because Catherine didn't die?? Merry

Yes Scotlands People is official documentation. A lot of my information came from Perth Registery Office. I suppose it is a possibility that he wasn't married to Emma Lawrence. Cannot find Hugh on 1901 Census for Scotland Still saving the Malt for you Ken.

Kenneth In another post you put that the areas the family lived were Perth & the North East of England. You don't by any chance know the dates that they lived in the areas do you? Have you tried asking other family members (did you mention you had brothers?) and cousins, etc? Someone might know your father's date of birth. Also as I said before, I live in Perth and so if you need anything looking up in the area, just let me know. Also looking at the dates, Hugh (b 1813) & Christina (b 1817) were married for 20 years (1839) before they had Hugh (b 1858). Its feasible but ???? Seems a bit long afterwards. Have you tried tracing them through the earlier census, 1841, 51, etc. Rach

Thanks for the offer Rach but we live near Perth so will be checking it out shortly. I am the last in the line so don't have anyone else to ask. Wish I had asked a few more questions when they were alive. Thanks Ken

I have been wondering about this: Name: SINCLAIR, Catherine Record Type: Deaths Age at death: 28 Quarter: September Year: 1885 District: Newcastle upon Tyne County: Northumberland Volume: 10b Page: 8 This death is for a woman slightly older than the 1881 census record suggests (21 in April 1881, could be as much as 26 by Sept Q 1885), but then a couple of years in those days would not be that far out! As you couldn't find Catherine's death in Scotland, I wondered if this might be her? You could order the cert with a checking point - should be the widow of Hugh - at least his first name is pretty rare! If you tried asking the local reg office instead of the GRO you might not be charged anything if it's the wrong cert....... Merry

Will check this out thanks. We may be down that way in a couple of weeks time so will have a look. 6 nips of Malt Ken