Genealogy Chat

Stand by - will post message below.

I have a question for all of you clever folks … when working from parish registers, are there any standards for what constitutes acceptable proof of a family relationship? I have a 5x great-grandfather who was married in Berry Pomeroy, Devon, in 1729. The parish register refers to him as Richard Parrott of Cornworthy (a nearby parish), but makes no mention of his parents’ names. The Cornworthy Baptismal register shows a Richard Perrott born in 1699 to John and Agnes Perrott, who appears to be a likely candidate. Can I reasonably claim this Richard (along with his parents, grandparents, etc…) as my own? It’s not the spelling that concerns me (the name was variously spelled Parrott, Perrot, Perritt, and Perriotte), but the possibility there may have been another Richard who was not in the register (for one thing, there’s a gap in the records from 1700 to 1812). I have included in my notes that the evidence is less than fully conclusive, but I wonder if it’s fair to claim this person at all. There’s no legal issue involved, it’s just a question of personal responsibility. I’m highly sceptical of some people’s claims that they can trace their lineage back to the 13th century (unless they were of royal or noble families) and I don’t want to be guilty of similar exaggeration. On the other hand, if I can legitimately include the 1699 Richard in my family tree, then I can trace back the family for another 3 or 4 generations. I’d appreciate hearing your opinions. Thanks - Tim P.S. I won’t be monitoring this board for the next few hours, so if you have any questions, you’ll have to wait a while for the answers.

Hi Tim Who says the PR is missing for those years? Have you tried to find Bishop's Transcripts? How many other Perrotts were on the two registers? Loads? None? Have you tried to find any other documents about this man, eg Settlement Papers, removal orders, a Will? Do you know what his job was? In a case like this, if there really are no other candidates, then I would pencil him in as being likely to be mine, but always bearing in mind that there IS a question mark. Sometimes something turns up totally unexpectedly which proves a relationship. But in a village where there are umpteen people with the same surname, then its often a question of going backwards, say a hundred years and working forwards. Good luck Olde Crone

Can you find another Richard of a similar age in a later Census? Is there another Richard fathering children in the area 25-30 years later? As Olde Crone says, there is probably another source of the PRs, local records offices should have the details. If the answer is no to all your searches for another Richard then I would be inclined to believe you have the right man. Sometimes you just have to make the jump and assume. And proof, what's that? Not one person on GR can PROVE anyone was the father unless DNA tests have been done. I'm sure women had flings just as they do today but hubby's name would go in the records.

with the 30 year age gap and same name they seem probably father and son.

The OPC for Cornworthy sent me a complete transcription of all the registers that he had and I believe that the gap in records existed within a particular fiche (i.e., it wasn’t just a case where he hadn’t ordered them all). And prior to that, I had looked at the registers for Cornworthy (as well as Berry Pomeroy) on microfilm at a research library and I believe that the gap was there as well (at the time, I was just confirming information I had received from a cousin, not looking for other possibilities). The suggestion about Bishop’s Transcripts is an excellent one that I will try to follow up - I knew there was a reason for posting my message here! I have found (and purchased) four PCC wills for Perrotts in the Cornworthy/Ashprington area, the earliest of which (John Perrott 1583 and his widow Alice 1586) appear to be Richard’s (b. 1699) direct ancestors. The other two appear to be cousins. As for the other types of documents you mentioned (e.g., Settlement Papers, removal orders, etc…), one problem is that I live in Canada, so unless there’s an online index it’s difficult for me to find some of these sources. There were a few Perrott families in both Cornworthy and Berry Pomeroy, although in both cases it’s not too difficult to keep track of who’s who via the parish registers (unlike my O’Sullivan and Harrington ancestors in Co. Cork Ireland, who were not only more prolific, but seem to have used only about a dozen given names for each gender). The main problem I have is this one individual who moved from one parish to the other. Helen, as you might realize there were no censuses which cover this period in question, and I’m able to follow Richard’s offspring in Berry Pomeroy fairly well after his marriage to Sarah. What I haven’t been able to do is discover if there was another Richard born in Cornworthy after 1699, or if that Richard married and/or fathered children in Cornworthy rather than moving to Berry Pomeroy (there’s also a gap in the marriage records from 1700 to 1753). But your suggestion about contacting the Devon Records Office is a good one - their online listing indicates that they have the Cornworthy baptismal registers from 1565 to 1857 (and the marriage registers from 1568 to 1837), so perhaps I can ask them to check if they have any gaps within their holdings. I agree that the whole idea of proof is an elusive one, but what I’m trying to ask is what evidence other people would consider adequate. I very much appreciate your opinions on this question. Thanks - Tim

Tim Another thing I have just remembered which might account for 'missing' registers' - di the Parish Church burn down/close for renovations etc during the 'missing' years? I had this with one particular Church and it was only when I googled the Church that I discovered that everyone had gone to Church in a neighbouring parish for 15 years! (But I would have THOUGHT your OPC would know about this?) As for settlement orders, removal orders etc etc, try www.a2a.org as a start - its my favourite site and I have found umpteen relevant documents on there. Olde Crone

What date was the marriage? If it was a fairly 'normal' timespan after the baptism (20-30 years?) then I think I would go with it. See if you can find another source for the PRs, someone on Devon section of Rootschat(.)com may be able to help, worth a post? (hope I don't get a 6 week ban for advertising other sites LOL)

Thanks to Olde, Helen and Alter for your input and suggestions. Just to clarify, I have Richard Perrott (baptised in Cornworthy in 1699) and Sarah Penney (baptised in Berry Pomeroy in 1709) getting married in 1729, when the groom was 30 and the bride was 20. While that’s not an insignificant age difference, it’s not outrageous either, and I don’t think there’s any confusion between fathers and sons involved here (that possibility did come up with a later Richard P). While a church closure could account for some of the gap, I don’t think that it’s the whole story - the marriage register resumes in 1754, while the baptisms and burials both pick up again in 1813. Baptism and burial indexes published by the Devon FHS cover 1813-1839 for most parishes, and most marriage indexes cover 1754-1837 (see http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/parishbooks.htm), which makes me think that the problem - whatever it was - wasn’t limited to this one parish. I thought that these records might have been destroyed when Exeter was bombed during WW2, but there’s no indication of this on the GENUKI site (http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/index.html#ChurchRecords). As I mentioned previously, I’ll try contacting the Devon Records Office to confirm what they have I have tried A2A, which is how I originally discovered the PCC wills, but didn’t find much searching specifically for Perrotts in Devon. Perhaps I will try different search terms (i.e., not surname specific) and see what comes up. It’s probably worth trying there again in any event to see if additional archives/records have been added to the system. For now I’m content to leave 1699 Richard and his ancestors in my family tree, while keeping further confirmation on my ‘to do’ list. If anyone thinks this is too much of a stretch, feel free to ring in. Tim

Hi Tim I'm stymied on a family line: same part of the world, same period. In my case the village is heaving with the blighters. Bombs in WW2 deprived us of the most useful source for the period: wills. Most of my ancestors left one, but they all went up in smoke. However, the records of pre-war genealogists have been deposited at the Devon Record Office and these include abstracts of wills. It is worth contacting them and the Westcountry Local Studies Library to find out if there are any for your surname. There are lots of lists of names for the 1600s, but nothing much for the 1700s until the land tax, which is later than your period. Good luck!

Those dates for register transcripts: 1754 - 1837 for marriages, 1813 to 1837 for baptisms and burials rang a bell so I checked some old notes. 1754 was the date of the marriage legislation (Hardwicke Act )and a new form of preprinted marriage register was introduced. 1837 of course saw the introduction of the registers used for civil registration of marriages. 1813 was the year when a new form of preprinted register books for baptisms and for burials was brought in. At a guess those dates for available transcripts mean that the transcribers have only worked on these books (the earlier books may well still exist but would be much more difficult to transcribe through wear and tear, old writing and if they are anything like the volumes I've used, baptism, marriage and burial entries all crowded into as small a space as possible.

Hi Phoenix - Have you run into any similar gaps in the records for your Devon parishes? If so, were you able to find out anything from Bishop's Transcripts? Besides pre-WW2 will abstracts, are there any other sources for this part of the country that you've found particularly useful (esp. pre-19th century)? I see that the Society of Genealogists has similar gaps in their coverage for Cornworthy (see http://www.sog.org.uk/prc/devon.shtml#C). Perhaps the original registers were of too poor a quality to make reproduction worthwhile. I'm just sending an e-mail off to the DRO now. If I find out anything useful from them, I'll add it to this thread. Tim

Judith - I just saw your note after I posted my last one. Thanks very much for that information - it makes sense and explains why the Devon FHS starts their indexes (indices) when they do. Tim

Cornworthy registers start in 1562. They appear to run through the period without major gaps. The BTs start in 1602, but there are none between 1699 & 1750. Volume 5 of the Baring Gould collection at the Plymouth Central Library has a copy of extracts from the registers up to 1744 (ish) and finally the Society of Genealogists holds a microfiche copy of the registers from 1562 - 1837+ (who was is saying the other day that the National Index of Parish Registers weren't worth having?!) It might be worth contacting the Devon Record Office to confirm the coverage and asking if they are prepared to sell you a fiche covering the period you want. Cornworthy population in 1831 was 567, so not exactly a big parish.

This is a link to the Devon Record Office, also showing no gap in records: http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/democracycommunities/neighbourhoods-villages/record_office/record_offices_in_devon/parish_register_list/dpr_c.htm

Just found this on the SoG catalogue: CORNWORTHY: C 1563-1652, 1700-1812, M 1568-1642, 1653? 1700-53, B 1563-1642? 1700-1812 [Microfilm.] It looks as if there is a very minor gap - poss 10 years - during the interregnum, but the period you want is covered.

Finally, they are like gold dust, but if you can get hold of anything by TL Stoate, it's worth looking at. He has published lay subsidies, militia rolls etc for Devon. If there was a list of men pre 1700 for Devon, he printed it.

Phoenix - Thank you so much for all the great leads. I had the link for the Devon Record Office, thanks, and read about their parish records / Bishop's Transcript collections before I e-mailed them. I imagine that they had all gone home for the weekend by the time my e-mail arrived. It's odd how the SoG has the Cornworthy registers split up into two overlapping bunches in their catalogue. It's even stranger that they don't have the lot you found listed in their holdings for Devon as per the URL I posted earlier. Still, I'm just glad to discover they exist. In any event, this sort of help is beyond anything that I'd hoped for - it's certainly worth the cost of a year's membership to GR. Take care - Tim

Have you tried contacting the person conducting a One Name Study of your surname? Maybe he can help. Details of how to contact are on the G,O,O,N.S site.

Hi Gwyneth - There is a P*rr*tt Society (it includes Parretts, Perrotts, Porritts, etc...) to which I used to belong, which was very helpful when we first began looking at our genealogy 10 or so years ago (my father started first, and then I took over as his health and eyesight declined). Through the Society, we got in touch with a cousin of my father's who had already done a lot of the initial legwork, since he was still in England (and there was very little in the way of online genealogy information at that time). Unfortunately, there were only three or four other members descended from the same branch and since we're now in touch anyway, I've let my membership lapse. Tim