Genealogy Chat

sorry - please blame it on dyslexic fingers!

I have a feeling that that Grace was buried in Heptonstall which is at the other end of
Todmorden from where nearly all the rest are buried.

I will jsu have to be satisfied with the data I have on her parents and sister Selina, the direct line of my research.

Just trying to tidy up loose ends which sometimes give a hint for another family as they are so intermingled with common names.

Ah! You said Grace was only on the 1851 census - no wonder I couldn't find her!

Ancestry suggests that this is the death of that Grace:

Grace Greenwood
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Name: Grace Greenwood
Registration Year: 1841
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Todmorden
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 21
Page: 496


There are 5 possible Grace Greenwoods born in Todmorden (if she was 1 in 1841 as per census) - none of them with mms Butterworth:

GREENWOOD, GRACE REDMAN
GRO Reference: 1839 M Quarter in TODMORDEN Volume 21 Page 701

GREENWOOD, GRACE WADSWORTH
GRO Reference: 1839 M Quarter in TODMORDEN Volume 21 Page 703

GREENWOOD, GRACE HELLIWELL
GRO Reference: 1839 J Quarter in TODMORDEN Volume 21 Page 762

GREENWOOD, GRACE MARSLAND
GRO Reference: 1839 J Quarter in TODMORDEN Volume 21 Page 754

GREENWOOD, GRACE SUTCLIFFE
GRO Reference: 1840 M Quarter in TODMORDEN Volume 21 Page 741



However, there's another birth -

The birth which Ancestry suggests goes with that death and the 1841 census is this:

Grace Greenwood
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Grace Greenwood
Registration Year: 1839
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Todmorden
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 21
Page: 689

The name is indeed Greenwood on the image.

However, GRO website has it just as Green, with no mms (probably because the name's wrong - so no way of knowing if her mother was Butterworth or not.)

GREEN, GRACE ...
GRO Reference: 1839 D Quarter in TODMORDEN Volume 21 Page 689

Yes that is my family in 1851 with Selina who is my main research.

One of those could be my Betsy as unusually for the area I can't find a burial for 2 of them.

This was the Grace I had in 1841 living Baltimore, Todmorden

Name Age
James Greenwood 25
Mary Greenwood 25
William Greenwood 7
Mary Greenwood 4
Grace Greenwood 1

When I originally looked at this family it was back about 2012 and in my inexperience I assumed Grace was a daughter but of course she may not have been. Baptisms in the family do also seem to be very random and in small batches - in the twins case before an older brother & sister! I have never found one for sister Mary.

As Betsy isn't with the family above in 1851, one of these (as probably previously suggested) is probably her death:

GREENWOOD, BETSY 0
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in TODMORDEN Volume 21 Page 571

GREENWOOD, BETSY 0
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in TODMORDEN Volume 21 Page 498

GREENWOOD, BETSY 1
GRO Reference: 1849 D Quarter in TODMORDEN Volume 21 Page 514

You said you'd never found her on a census.

There were 37 Grace Greenwoods born in Todmorden RD 1841-51 - but none of them has mms Butterworth.

The only Grace Greenwood, mms Butterworth, born 1841-51, is this one:

GREENWOOD, GRACE mms BUTTERWORTH
GRO Reference: 1848 J Quarter in HALIFAX Volume 22 Page 275


This must be your James/Mary family at Stackhills in 1851 , with the twin daughters you mentioned - but there's no Grace.

This is the only Greenwood family at Stackhills in 1851(at least, the only one with James/Mary as parents)

James Greenwood
in the 1851 England Census
Name: James Greenwood
Age: 41
Estimated birth year: abt 1810
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary Greenwood
Gender: Male
Where born: Langfield, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Langfield
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:
View image
Registration district: Todmorden
Sub-registration district: Todmorden
ED, institution, or vessel: 2d
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 132
Piece: 2289
Folio: 290
Page Number: 36
Household Members:
Name Age
James Greenwood 41
Mary Greenwood 39
William Greenwood 17
Mary Greenwood 13
Jennis Greenwood 7 [James ]
Selina Greenwood 5
Mary Alice Greenwood 1 Mo
Emma Greenwood 10 Mo [ should be 1 month ]


GREENWOOD, MARY ALICE BUTTERWORTH
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in TODMORDEN Volume 21 Page 901

GREENWOOD, EMMA BUTTERWORTH
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in TODMORDEN Volume 21 Page 901


GREENWOOD, JAMES BUTTERWORTH
GRO Reference: 1843 D Quarter in TODMORDEN Volume 21 Page 707

GREENWOOD, SELINA BUTTERWORTH
GRO Reference: 1845 D Quarter in TODMORDEN Volume 21 Page 770

[DELETED info re wrong family ]

as you say Erika there are more than 1 Betsy Greenwoods in Todmorden. That is the main problem. I have never found an appropriate one in a census and the address does not seem right (though it is a possible) for the one who died in 1849. It says Shade where the rest of the family appear in 1841 at Baltimore & 51 as Stackhills and from at least June 1851 as Baltimore (from a baptism of twin sisters)

I think I had eliminated the ones you quote as being married - though it could have been a Greenwood Greenwood marriage! Not uncommon.

As she is not a direct ancestor I will probably just give up on this one. Just annoying as the only other one of the 9 I have not got details for is her sister Grace who appears in only 1851 census

Thanks for your help

Another death.................and burial

Name: Betsy Greenwood
Death Age: 83
Birth Date: abt 1849
Registration Date: Jan 1932
[Feb 1932]
[Mar 1932]
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Todmorden
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9a
Page: 350

Name: Betsy Greenwood
Age: 83
Birth Year: abt 1849
Burial Date: 12 Mar 1932
Burial Place: Cross Stone Todmorden, St Paul, Yorkshire, England
Parish: Cross Stone Todmorden, St Pau
Address: 1, Warland Gate End, Walsden

There is also this death

Name: Betsy Greenwood
Death Age: 83
Birth Date: abt 1848
Registration Date: Oct 1931
[Nov 1931]
[Dec 1931]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Todmorden
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9a
Page: 268

And this burial..............

Name: Betsy Greenwood
Age: 71
Birth Year: abt 1848
Burial Date: 6 May 1919
Burial Place: Todmorden, Christ Church, Yorkshire, England
Parish: Todmorden, Christ Church
Address: 15, Stonefield Street

BUT - there is more than one birth in 1848 for Betsy Greenwood in Todmorden

And either - or both - of the women above could have been married

Name: Betsy Greenwood
Age: 23
Birth Year: abt 1845
Burial Date: 24 Dec 1868
Burial Place: Cross Stone Todmorden, St Paul, Yorkshire, England
Parish: Cross Stone Todmorden, St Paul
Address: Knowlwood Terrace

ancestry has a Betsy Greenwood death Todmorden age 23 yrs in 1868 , born 1845

Thanks Erika

If they were lying they were also lying on her baptism - parents and address as known but a private baptism at Christchurch Todmorden which took place when she was about 1 year old. Not found her in any census or her death

parents James & Mary living Baltimore, Todmorden on her baptism and family Stackhills in 1851

She definitely wasn’t illegitimate - the fact that the MMN is on the record is all the evidence you need to prove that.

Unless..........someone lied, in which case you have a different scenario ;-) ;-)

OC means that a correction has been made ,in this case the Vol and Page number has been verified and corrected,by the GRO.,,,,,


Here is an example of a correction for the same person.


Births Mar 1845 (>99%)
Greenwood Betsy Todmorden 21 807*** Scan available - click to view
Greenwood Betsy Todmorden 21 806***

I am sure Betsy was not illegitimate as she was the 6th child of 9 - all the others have normal registrations

Occasional copies are submitted by the Superintendent Registrar when a correction is made to a register entry in their custody, nothing to do with illegitimacy

Thanks Erica. On googling it someone thinks it was because the registration had an amendment. The page numbers also threw me.

Sorry Shirley I hadn't refreshed the page before replying - thanks for that explanation which conforms it I think.

I was a little confused also as when I was transcribing for FREEBMD if a correction had been made there was often a comment saying 'see vol n page n'

I believe an occasional copy is because a correction has been done after the first registration

I can’t help with your query about ‘Occasional Copy’, but I have seen that notation on several entries, so it’s a fairly common occurrence. When life returns To ‘normal’, I’ve no doubt the GRO would be pleased to answer any query raised with them.

Thanks Erika - finger trouble!

It is definitely the Butterworth ones I am looking at

Just checked FREEBMD using vol & page no and vol 21 p75 is actually Blackburn not Todmorden