Genealogy Chat

Dear All
I am looking for some advice/assistance. I have a copy of the original entry of the birth of my Great Grandmother Helen Douglas/Dingwall. I was given this information by a distant relation by marriage on genes reunited who has sadly passed away. I do not know where he was able to access this entry and would appreciate being pointed in the right direction. It would appear that my great grandmother was illegitimate. The father is entered as David Douglas occupation painter but underneath it states illegitimate. The birth was registered by the Grandmother Christie Dingwall which makes me wonder if the mother, Jessie Dingwall, died in childbirth. In the column at the side of the register is quite a lot of writing which I cannot read as the copy does not show the whole text and the handwriting is not easy to read. Helen was born 10th December 1856 in the Parish if Dingwall Ross.

Any help would be appreciated. Christine :-)

You will be able to see the original on the Scotlandspeople website.

It was quite common for a birth to be registered by a third party if the mother of an illegitimate child was unable to attend the register office. Unless it states on the registration that the mother was deceased, it would be reasonable to assume that she was still alive. If her parents weren't married at the time, the father would have to be present to have his name on the certificate.

Sometimes in the case of an illegitimate child an RCE (Register of corrected entry) is added if the parents marry later of the mother has gone to court to have paternity proved. If there is an RCE you can spend another couple of credits to view it.

DINGWALL
HELEN DOUGLAS
F
1856
062/ 49
Dingwall

First name(s) Helen
Last name Douglass Or Dingwall
Gender Female
Birth year 1856
Birth place Dingwall,Ross and Cromarty,Scotland
Father's first name(s) David
Father's last name Douglass
Mother's first name(s) Jessie
Mother's last name Dingwall
Place Dingwall
County Ross and Cromarty
Country Scotland

Well, her mother didn't die in childbirth. Here they are in 1871 and it looks like the informant of the birth was Jessie's mother.


1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Crawfords Close, Dingwall, Ross and Cromarty, Scotland

Christina Dingwall Head Widow Female 76 1795 - Lochbroom, Ross & Cromarty, Scotland
Jessie Dingwall Daughter Unmarried Female 37 1834 Dress Maker Fodderty, Ross & Cromarty, Scotland
Helen Douglas Grand Daughter - Female 14 1857 Scholar Dingwall, Ross & Cromarty, Scotland

Thank you for this I will go to that site and hopefully be able to read the notes.

Helen isn't with her mother in 1861:


Jessie Dingwall
in the 1861 Scotland Census
Name:
Jessie Dingwall
Age:
28
Estimated birth year:
abt 1833
Relationship:
Daughter
Mother's name:
Christina Dingwall
Gender:
Female
Where born:
Fodderty, rossshire
Dingwall
County:
Ross and Cromarty
Address:
Burnside
Occupation:
Dress Maker


Christina Dingwall 67
Jessie Dingwall 28

With paternal aunt & uncle ??


Helen Douglas
in the 1861 Scotland Census
Name: Helen Douglas
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Relationship: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Dingwall, rossshire
Registration Number: 100
Registration district: Kilmorack
Civil Parish: Kilmorack
County: Inverness
Address: Private House
ED: 3
Household schedule number: 2
LINE: 7
Roll: CSSCT1861_13
Household Members:
Name Age
William Douglas 24
Helen Douglas 20
Margaret Fraser 32
James Robertson 21
Helen Douglas 4


William and Helen (senior) are sister & brother, both born Kilmorack, Inverness-shire.


David with parents & siblings including Helen in 1851 ??

David Douglas
in the 1851 Scotland Census
Name: David Douglas
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1835
Relationship: Son
Mother: Margt Douglas
Gender: Male
Where born: Kilmorack, invssshire
Parish Number: 100
Civil Parish: Kilmorack
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
Town: Beauly
County: Inverness
Address: Beauly
Occupation: Painter App <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
ED: 1
Page: 41
Household schedule number: 175
LINE: 6
Roll: CSSCT1851_23
Household Members:
Name Age
Margt Douglas 40
David Douglas 16
Donald Douglas 12
Helen Douglas 10
Mary Mcrae 16


EDIT:

1841 - parents haven't been transcribed - the original's viewable on SP:


David Douglass
in the 1841 Scotland Census
Name: David Douglass
Age: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1835
Gender: Male
Where born: Inverness, Scotland
Civil Parish: Kilmorack
County: Inverness
Address: Beauly
Parish Number: 100
Household Members:
Name Age
David Douglass 6
William Douglass 4
Donald Douglass 3

David Douglas
in the UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges, 1715-1925
Name: David Douglas
Pension Admission or Examination Age: 35
Birth Year: abt 1835
Birth Place: Kilmorack, Beauly, Inverness
Pension Admission or Examination Date: 11 Oct 1870
Regiment: 74 Foot
Rank: Colour Sergeant
Regimental Number: 597



David Douglass
in the Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
Name: David Douglass
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 4 Oct 1834
Baptism Place: Kilmorack,Inverness,Scotland
Father: William Douglass
Mother: Margaret Grey
FHL Film Number: 990709

Long shot - he's a trimmer (crew member). I don't see the David who was Helen's father on UK censuses 1871 or later.
the one below is on several crew lists - on one he's David I (or maybe J) Douglas - so maybe not the right David. Birth always given as 1840:


David Douglas
in the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: David Douglas
Estimated birth year: abt 1840
Age: 34
Port of Departure: Fiji
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 8 May 1874
Vessel Name: Macgregor
Origin Location: Inverness, Scotland


EDIT:

No, this isn't him - see death record below.

David and his mother and brother buried in Beauly. Can't find a death in Scotland for David in 1875 so perhaps he is just commemorated on the stone.


Douglas Margaret 1860 1809 * * * Priory, Beauly 75 Midwife, Beauly


Douglas David 1875 41 * * Douglas Margaret Priory, Beauly 75


Douglas William 1872 35 * * Douglas Margaret Priory, Beauly 75

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
1, George Street, Dingwall, Ross and Cromarty, Scotland

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Jessie Dingwall Head Unmarried Female 45 1836 Dingwall, Ross & Cromarty, Scotland Dressmaker




1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Grant Street, Dingwall, Ross and Cromarty, Scotland

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Jessie Dingwall Head Unmarried Female 56 1835 Fodderty, Ross & Cromarty, Scotland Dressmaker



1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
9, Grant Street, Dingwall, Ross and Cromarty, Scotland

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Jessie Dingwall Head Married Female 66 1835 Fodderty, Ross & Cromarty, Scotland -

I think this is her:


1841 Census
Piece: SCT1841/62 Place: Dingwall -Ross and Cromarty Enumeration District: 3
Civil Parish: Dingwall Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 1 Page: 33
Address: - , Royal Burgh
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
DINGWALL Christian F 40 Ross and Cromarty
DINGWALL Ellen F 11 Ross and Cromarty
DINGWALL Janet F 9 Ross and Cromarty

marr https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYQJ-R2V
16/10/29 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQQ1-BTP
30/1231 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7M-QJM

NB In Scotland, Jessie and Janet are effectively synonyms

Chritian is more interesting. I looked at Ancestry's Scottish census for 1841 and 1871.
1841 - I got 34891 hits for Christi* and 22488 for Christian - 64%
1871 - I got 43182hits for Christi* and 6362 for Christian - 15%

It seems to me that folj were renaming themselves from Christian to Christine/ Christina and similar variants.

This was the case in my own Ancestors. Here's my g grandad with his sister Christian:
1871 Census
Piece: SCT1871/228 Place: Old Deer -Aberdeenshire Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Old Deer Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 0 Page: 11 Schedule: 51
Address: Home Farm Pitfour
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
PARK Alexander Head M M 43 Overseer 400ac Emp 7men 2boys Banffshire - St Fergus 10 rooms
PARK Mary Wife M F 32 Overseer's' Wife Aberdeenshire - New Deer
SMITH Mary Servnt U F 30 House Keeper Aberdeenshire - Old Deer
GREIG Christian Servnt U F 23 General Servant (Domestic) Banffshire - Old Deer
SCOTT Robert Servnt U M 30 Farm Servant Aberdeenshire - Longside
SMITH William Servnt U M 30 Farm Servant Aberdeenshire - Crimond
DAVIDSON John Servnt U M 16 Farm Servant Aberdeenshire - Peterhead
GREIG John Servnt U M 15 Farm Servant Aberdeenshire - Rathen

Christian was named after their gran but, by 1871, both her maternal grandparents are dead. On John's 1877 m.cert. his sis is a witness - she signs as Christina Greig.

This is David's death, even though the age doesn't fit with YOB:

DOUGLAS
DAVID
38
1875
098/ 229
Inverness


David Douglas, Staff Sergeant, Highland Light Infantry Militia, married to Ellen Redden.
Died 23 July 1875, 9.50pm, at 50 Huntly Street, Inverness.
Father: William Douglas, farmer, deceased.
Mother: Margaret Douglas, ms Gray, deceased.
Cause of death: dilatation of heart, unknown, bronchitis, 6 weeks.
Informant: Ellen Douglas, widow.

I don't see the marriage, but the son was born in Gibraltar, so maybe they married there.

David Douglas
in the 1871 Scotland Census
Name: David Douglas
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1836
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Ellen Douglas
Gender: Male
Where born: Beauly, Inverness
Registration Number: 644/5
Registration district: Clyde
Civil Parish: Glasgow St Peter
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 7 Wood Lane (broomielaw)
Occupation: Clerk
ED: 31
Household schedule number: 50
LINE: 17
Roll: CSSCT1871_132
Household Members:
Name Age
David Douglas 35
Ellen Douglas 25 - Ireland
David Gray Douglas 8 Mo - Gibraltar



David G Douglas
in the U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007
Name: David G Douglas
Birth Date: 3 Aug 1874
Birth Place: Gibraltar
Claim Date: 27 Dec 1950
SSN: 215090902
Notes: 21 Dec 1950: Name listed as DAVID G DOUGLAS



David G Douglas
in the New York, State Census, 1892
Name: David G Douglas (Douglass on image)
Birth Year: abt 1871
Birth Place: Spain
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Citizenship: Citizen
Residence Place: Rochester, Monroe
Ward: Ward 03
Election District: 03
occupation: Clerk

With Mag. Douglass, 18, born Scotland, seamstress.

David Grey Douglas
in the U.S., World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918
Name: David Grey Douglas
Birth Date: 3 Aug 1873
Street address: 1712 Thomas Ave
Residence Place: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Physical Build: 130
Height: 5-8 1/2
Hair Color: Light
Eye Color: Grey
Relative: Mary Ann Douglas
Relative's Relationship: Wife


He's on the 1920, 1930, 1940 US censuses with wife and children - but not of interest to Christine, seeing his father didn't marry Jessie, so I won't pursue him further!

Wow this is amazing thank you all so much. I was out for the day yesterday so only just picked up your replies. It is great to have so much information I would never been able to get this much on my own. thanks again.
Christine

Hi ArgyllGran

Having had time to digest all of the information I would be most grateful if you could let me have further family history regarding David Grey Douglas as (if I have understood it correctly) he is the half brother of my Great Grandmother Helen Douglas Dingwall.
Thanking you in anticipation

Christine

Yes, he's Helen's half brother.


David G Douglas
in the 1920 United States Federal Census
Name: David G Douglas
Age: 44
Birth Year: abt 1876
Birthplace: Spain
Home in 1920: Baltimore Ward 15, Baltimore (Independent City), Maryland
Street: Rosedale St
House Number: 2206
Residence Date: 1920
Race: White
Gender: Male
Immigration Year: 1891
Relation to Head of House: Head
Marital Status: Married
Spouse's Name: Mary A Douglas
Father's Birthplace: Scotland
Mother's Birthplace: Ireland
Native Tongue: Scotch
Able to Speak English: Yes
Occupation: Manager
Industry: Casket Company
Employment Field: Wage or Salary
Home Owned or Rented: Own
Home Free or Mortgaged: Mortgaged
Naturalization Status: Naturalized
Able to Read: Yes
Able to Write: Yes
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
David G Douglas 44
Mary A Douglas 34 - born New York
Donald N Douglas 7
Margaret Douglas 6
Vincent R Douglas 3
Helen M Douglas 2

All the children born in Maryland.




David G Douglas
in the 1930 United States Federal Census
Name: David G Douglas
Birth Year: abt 1874
Gender: Male
Race: White
Birthplace: Spain
Marital Status: Married
Relation to Head of House: Head
Home in 1930: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Map of Home: View Map
Street address: Rosedale Street
Ward of City: 15
Block: 392
House Number: 2206
Dwelling Number: 212
Home Owned or Rented: Owned
Home Value: 5400
Radio Set: Yes
Lives on Farm: No
Age at First Marriage: 37
Attended School: No
Able to Read and Write: Yes
Father's Birthplace: Scotland
Mother's Birthplace: Ireland
Language Spoken: English
Immigration Year: 1890 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Naturalization: Naturalized
Able to Speak English: Yes
Occupation: Manager
Industry: Mfg Funeral Supplies
Class of Worker: Wage or salary worker
Employment: Yes
Household Members:
Name Age
David G Douglas 56
Mary A Douglas 45
Donald N Douglas 17
Margaret M Douglas 16
Vincent R Douglas 14
Helen M Douglas 12
Joseph Douglas 9
Mary Douglas 7
John Eskstine 47 - roomer


David G Douglas
in the 1940 United States Federal Census
Name: David G Douglas
Age: 66
Estimated birth year: abt 1874
Gender: Male
Race: White
Birthplace: Gibralta Spain
Marital Status: Married
Relation to Head of House: Head
Home in 1940: Baltimore, Baltimore City, Maryland
Map of Home in 1940: View Map
Street: Rosedale Street
House Number: 2206
Farm: No
Inferred Residence in 1935: Baltimore, Baltimore City, Maryland
Residence in 1935: Same House
Resident on farm in 1935: No
Citizenship: Naturalized
Sheet Number: 2B
Number of Household in Order of Visitation: 45
Occupation: Under King
House Owned or Rented: Owned
Value of Home or Monthly Rental if Rented: 3500
Attended School or College: No
Highest Grade Completed: Elementary school, 8th grade
Hours Worked Week Prior to Census: 40
Class of Worker: Wage or salary worker in private work
Weeks Worked in 1939: 52
Income: 2800
Income Other Sources: No
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
David G Douglas 66
Mary Douglas 55
Donald R Douglas 27
Joseph Douglas 19
Mary Douglas 17



His wife was Mary Ann Lillrik / Lillvik / Lilvik:

David G Douglas
in the U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007
Name: David G Douglas
Gender: Male
Spouse: Mary A Lillrik
Child: Vincent Redden Douglas


David G Douglas
in the U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007
Name: David G Douglas
Gender: Male
Spouse: Mary A Lillvik
Child: Margaret Mary Douglas


David Douglas
in the U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007
Name: David Douglas
Gender: Male
Spouse: Mary Lilvik
Child: Mary Elizabeth Douglas

Death of son Donald:


Donald Douglas
in the U.S., Department of Veterans Affairs BIRLS Death File, 1850-2010
Name: Donald Douglas
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 26 Jun 1912
Death Date: 17 Sep 1988
SSN: 212093931
Branch 1: ARMY
Enlistment Date 1: 22 Jul 1942
Release Date 1: 13 May 1946


Ltc Donald N Douglas Sr
in the U.S., Find A Grave Index, 1600s-Current
Name: Ltc Donald N Douglas Sr
Birth Date: 26 Jun 1912
Death Date: 17 Sep 1988
Cemetery: Maryland Veterans Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place: Crownsville, Anne Arundel County, Maryland, United States of America
Has Bio?: N