Genealogy Chat

Reggie there is a slight possiblity that the birth wasnt registered till well after the child was born BUT BUT and BUT

How the devil is anyone going to prove it!!???

As i said in my post we as a family are sure this is what happened to my granny BUT we are never ever going to prove it ....

Even allowing for the adjustment of the death date........... a man who died in July of one year could not be the father of a child born in September the following year

Why would anyone bother to falsify the birth record of a legitimate child?

It just isn't logical.................

You haven't answered the question about who registered the birth?

Your welcome Jan,


Roy

Thanks for posting that Roy.

Thelma -

THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
The Thiepval Memorial, the Memorial to the Missing of the Somme, bears the names of more than 72,000 officers and men of the United Kingdom and South African forces who died in the Somme sector before 20 March 1918 and have no known grave. Over 90% of those commemorated died between July and November 1916.

The memorial, designed by Sir Edwin Lutyens, was built between 1928 and 1932 and unveiled by the Prince of Wales, in the presence of the President of France, on 1 August 1932 (originally scheduled for 16 May but due to the death of French President Doumer the ceremony was postponed until August).

Plenty of time for her to remarry - no doubt she submitted that info, possibly indirectly, like responding to the invite to the Thiepval opening ceremony in her new name

===========================

Potty - we get some TV series here, where Norm Christie goes round WW1, WW2 and Korean battlefields, then goes to the cemetery afterwards, and talks more abt the soldiers, etc. He mentioned one time, I think for WW1 (and this would be for Canadians, not UK) that the families were given a list of possible inscriptions and got to choose one. I don't recall that there was an option for unlisted inscriptions, but there could have been.
http://knowledge.ca/program/for-king-and-country
http://www.knowledge.ca/program/for-king-empire-canadas-soldiers-in-the-great-war

Jan, You can still get his records, You don't Need next of kins permission

Request for Service records of deceased Service personnel

Under the scheme, and in recognition of the duty of care owed to the family of the deceased subject, for a period of 25 years following the date of death of the subject and without the consent of the next of kin, MOD will disclose only:
•surname
•forename
•rank
•service number
•regiment/corps
•place of birth
•age
•date of birth
•date of death where this occurred in service
•the date an individual joined the service
•the date of leaving
•good conduct medals (for example, Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (LS&GCM)), any orders of chivalry and gallantry medals (decorations of valour) awarded, some of which may have been announced in the London Gazette

After this period, and if it is held, in addition MOD will disclose without the requirement for next of kin consent:
•the units in which he/she served
•the dates of this service and the locations of those units
•the ranks in which the service was carried out and details of campaign medals awarded


see https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records

Roy

As nan is still alive you wouldn't be able to get her 1st husbands army records as she is next of kin , getting these would at least hopefully give you when he was at home or abroad which might help ,perhaps you could look for war diaries of his regiment if you think these dates would help.

Reggie,

Thanks for the comments....

However if you read further down the thread on Page 1 you will see my additional entry, which rectifies an error on my part in my first initial post.

The death date of the first husband was July 1944 as CWGC records, which you point out can be trusted.

Of course CWGC records can be trusted.......the details on them are researched and checked thoroughly.

See what their reaction is if you get in touch and suggest that they are not careful................!

Why not just accept that the man named on the birth cert is the father....................and ignore the meddling neighbours.

Who registered the birth?

As the so-called 'resemblance' was to the first husband - who DIED in 1942 - there is no point in trying to add a further male to the 'mix'

Great replies and some good points raised...its been 4 or 5 years since I last did any research on my family tree and its still as addictive as ever!

I will hopefully be getting some information on my moms baptism dates tonight so that should be an interesting read.

Marriages Dec 1909
KING May Florence Southampton 2c 131

Others on the same page include

LONGLAND Charles Alfred Southampton 2c 131

Births Dec 1912
Longland Doris M King Southampton 2c 134

Marriages Dec 1916
Longland May F Wareham Southampton 2c 86
Spouse is Frederick Wareham

Births Jun 1916
Wareham Frederick L King Southampton 2c 119
Births Sep 1918
Wareham Reginald King Southampton 2c 35

Roy

Nothing is always 100% acurate even BMD records depend on information provided and human error can play a part But Yes the CWGC can be trusted

Roy

That is the point,can CWGC records be trusted?
Which parts of the information are submitted?
Let us assume that the CWGC is correct and that the birth is correct then It points to another father,who died in the war,someone who was known to the neighbours .

Why would anyone imagine that a child born in Sept 1945 could have been fathered by a man who died in 1942?

Sperm banks weren't around then..............

Your mother must remember when she started school.........in which year was it?

Thelma

CWGC records are not contemporaneous...............they have been compiled many years after the event they commemorate

The first CWGC cemeteries were not built until 1921 and I would think that relatives were contacted for info. In my uncles WW1 Service record there is a form that my grandmother filled in listing all his family - this was for the commemoration plaque and scroll. The form had to be signed and witnessed by Minister or Magistrate, so it looks as if the Army took verification seriously.

The grave stones in the cemetery where he is buried all have different inscriptions and I wonder if families were asked what they would like.

Not quite sure what you mean Thelma, The main info is correct,

Just looking at the entry without checking it out he was married to May Florence when he died and she remarried Mr Wareham at a later date

Aditional info more often than not is added years after the event and so will often differ just as people move on with their lives so it would have been wrong to list her as still married to the deceased when she had remarried,

Remember the CWGC is not just a graveyard it is a memorial to the people who gave the ultimate sacrifice

In fact Its an ongoing projest and they are still searching and adding info to the site

Roy

I was helping a friend some years ago and found this entry on CWGC:-
Name: LONGLAND, CHARLES
Initials: C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Hampshire Regiment
Unit Text: 11th Bn.
Age: 26
Date of Death: 09/09/1916
Service No: 10780
Additional information: Son of George Henry Longland; husband of May Florence Wareham (formerly Longland), of 13, St. George's Place, Houndwell, Southampton.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 7 C and 7 B.
Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
As you can see the entry includes his widow remarried.This brings into question the sources of CWGC.

Was your nan related to her first hubby? - like maybe they were 1st cousins.

I also come back to my question,

Who was named as the informant on her birth certificate?

The list of people eligable to register a birth in order of preference was

(1) In all cases - mother

(2) Father - if he is married to mother

(3) Father and mother jointly where they are not married to one another

(4) A person present at the birth

(5) The owner or occupier of the house or institution

(6) The person in charge of the child

See http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/births.htm

Roy

It may be worthwhile trying to locate her Baptism...unlike today most babies were Baptised within a couple of weeks following the Birth.