Genealogy Chat

Hi Everyone,
I'm trying to solve a family mystery which I'm hoping someone can help or even point me in the right direction.
Ok here goes....My nan was married twice, her first husband was killed in France WW2 in 1942 (according to military records) and she married her second husband (my grandad) in Feb 1945.
My mom was born in Sept 1945 (according to the birth certificate).
BUT the big question as far as my mom is concerned is.....is my nans first husband her biological father.?

There are several reasons for this -
1) My nan (who is 93) refuses to talk about her first husband
2) When my mom was a little girl, several neighbours always used to tell her that her dad had been killed in the war.
3) A striking family resemblance between my mom and nans first husband.

Obviously if you go by the dates on the military records and moms birth certificate there is no way nans first husband could be my moms father, UNLESS either the military record is wrong or moms birth certificate is wrong.
Are any of these scenarios possible and/or has anyone else come across a similar situation.
I would really like to settle this once and for all, for my moms sake and my own curiosity.

Thanking you in advance

I dont think you will ever solve this problem unless your nan tells you .

I have the very same problem with my nan and her mother

As for the dates it can mean nothing as I think my great nanny didnt register her childs birth until she got married the second time and yes it was illegal but in those days no one really checked

complexed blood test could possible tell you but they are very costly and often difficult to get done in these cases

If your nans first husband died in 1942 and she then gave birth to your mum in 1945 then your nans first husband cannot posibly be her biological father (no mystery about it its a fact of life)

How do you know you have the correct DOD for her first husband?

Do you have the death certificate of her first husband?

When you say My mom was born in Sept 1945 (according to the birth certificate). does she not know when she was born?

and have you seen the said birth certificate plus who is named as father on that cert and who was the informant

Roy

I also presume you sent off for and recieved the service records for her first husband if not then when you say (according to military records) what records are you quoting?

The MOD still hold the records of soldiers who served in the WW2 and they are NOT online,

Have you found his death listed on the CWGC ?

Roy

Also when did your nan get married to her second husband? the reason i ask is that if she was not married to her second husband at the time of your moms birth then when the birth was registered your nans surname would still be that of her deceased husband giving the impresion that he was the father of that child,

A child was not given a surname on a birth certificate, the surname was pressumed usualy taken from the fathers surname when a father to the child was listed, with no father listed the surname is taken/assumed from the mothers surname at the time of registration

And a child born to a married woman was presumed in law to be her husbands child

Roy

Many thanks for the quick responses.

Roy I really appreciate your replies and I shall get back to you when I have collated more info

Shaun

Well I think the first two things I would check out (not by heresay, but by documentary evidence) are...
a) the death details of your nan's first husband
b) the birth details of your mum
your mum could have more than one birth registration, there are cases.

Just to clarify what Karen has said, More than one birth registration doesn't mean more than one birth certificate, You can register a birth only once but you can re-register the birth should any of those original details be wrong or for ammendments to the details such as under the 1926 act to lagitamize the birth

Roy

A re-registered birth "should" show up on the birth index with a reference to the original birth at the side, such as Vol 10a page 222 (see Dec 44) which is a note for the GRO that means the original birth entry is in the December quarter of 1944

The issue here is not when the birth was registered(1945) but when your mom was born,which should be no more than 9 months after the death of the first husband.
Surely your mom knows her age?

we believe that my nan was in 1910 but registered in 1912 being approx 18 months old ..she lived in a boarding house with her sister and other people easy to hid a child that young with people coming and going

Hi everyone,
Thanks for the responses.
If I can just clarify a few points.
My nans marriage to her first husband was in 1942. (Details as Marriage Certificate) He was then killed in France July 1944 (Details from CWGC).
My nan then married her second husband in Feb 1945. (Details as Marriage Certificate)
My mother was born in September 1945. (Detail as Birth Certificate)
Now this all ties in nicely.
What I want to try and find out (because of hearsay and because of the physical resemblance between my mother and my nans first husband) would there be a possibility my mothers birth certificate is incorrect either intentionally or by mistake, therefore making my mother older than she believes she is and making my nans first husband her biological father.
I may be barking up the wrong tree with this but would like to prove things once and for all.
Once again many thanks in advance.

There is still over 9 months from the death of her first husband and your mums birth. Plus her hubby was probably overseas for some time before he was killed

As Shirley says' plus

It is possible that the birth was registered late and the dob falsified in order to have the new husband made responcible for the child but if it was then what would be the motive? and for him to go along with that theory i would have thought that he must have thought it was his child which would imply that they were having an affair whilst her first husband was alive,

As a war widow she would have been eligable for a widows pension that included an eliment for the child of her deceased husband,

Why would she give that up?

Once she married her second husband she would have had that pension taken from her, Her new husband was in law now responcible for her and her child regardles of who the father was.

The fact that people thought she looked like the deceased man as a child is questionable, People could have simply said what they thought with out actualy knowing the facts

Roy

I am afraid neighbours gossiping can be vicious

Guess we have all witnessed this at some time .

The truth is the documentary proof

I do know when mum had my brother at home in 1945 the midwife had to sign forms as witnessesing the birth and a copy was sent to the registrar as well as papers given to mum.

Similarly when our daughter was born in 1958 in hospital. Hubby had to go twice to register her birth as he was turned away the first time as they hadn't received the paperwork from the hospital

You can't just go along and register a birth without some documentary proof of when it happened

It may be worthwhile trying to locate her Baptism...unlike today most babies were Baptised within a couple of weeks following the Birth.

I also come back to my question,

Who was named as the informant on her birth certificate?

The list of people eligable to register a birth in order of preference was

(1) In all cases - mother

(2) Father - if he is married to mother

(3) Father and mother jointly where they are not married to one another

(4) A person present at the birth

(5) The owner or occupier of the house or institution

(6) The person in charge of the child

See http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/births.htm

Roy

Was your nan related to her first hubby? - like maybe they were 1st cousins.

I was helping a friend some years ago and found this entry on CWGC:-
Name: LONGLAND, CHARLES
Initials: C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Hampshire Regiment
Unit Text: 11th Bn.
Age: 26
Date of Death: 09/09/1916
Service No: 10780
Additional information: Son of George Henry Longland; husband of May Florence Wareham (formerly Longland), of 13, St. George's Place, Houndwell, Southampton.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 7 C and 7 B.
Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
As you can see the entry includes his widow remarried.This brings into question the sources of CWGC.

Not quite sure what you mean Thelma, The main info is correct,

Just looking at the entry without checking it out he was married to May Florence when he died and she remarried Mr Wareham at a later date

Aditional info more often than not is added years after the event and so will often differ just as people move on with their lives so it would have been wrong to list her as still married to the deceased when she had remarried,

Remember the CWGC is not just a graveyard it is a memorial to the people who gave the ultimate sacrifice

In fact Its an ongoing projest and they are still searching and adding info to the site

Roy

The first CWGC cemeteries were not built until 1921 and I would think that relatives were contacted for info. In my uncles WW1 Service record there is a form that my grandmother filled in listing all his family - this was for the commemoration plaque and scroll. The form had to be signed and witnessed by Minister or Magistrate, so it looks as if the Army took verification seriously.

The grave stones in the cemetery where he is buried all have different inscriptions and I wonder if families were asked what they would like.